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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 2818416" data-attributes="member: 10201">Well, i speak only for myself, but "because the surest way to ruin anything for me is to introduce (or focus on) competitive elements". I used to love tennis. Then i got good enough that people wanted to start keeping score [we'd always score the games, 'cause we saw that as part of the 'rules', not the 'scorekeeping'--need to know when to change serves and so on; but i couldn't have told you who won how many games at the end of the day]. And, more importantly, i couldn't find others who were at the same level who weren't competitive. I basically haven't played since. So, for me, if by cheating you mean "breaking the rules of the game so that everyone is having more fun" [whether that means you're having more fun, and nobody else is having less fun; or everyone, individually, is having more fun makes no difference to me], then i could care less. If by cheating you mean "breaking the social contract, and doing things that are unacceptable to the rest of the group", then, yes, i find that unacceptable. I just think it's presumptuous to assume that those two situations are linked such that one necessarily implies the other. Not for the way i play.And what if they're cheating specifically to improve your fun? I'm not sure where the assumption underlying this thread changed from "minor cheating" to "minor cheating that interferes with other people's fun". In fact, i would personally say the criteria of whether or not it is "minor" is precisely whether it interferes with anyone else's enjoyment: if it does, it's not minor.Here's a hypothetical example: someone else in the party is downed right next to the Big Nasty. So you have your character make a daring dramatic dash into the fray to save them, putting her life on the line. It's a Big Moment, and you know that there's a very real chance you're sacrificing your character, to save someone else's. You've been playing a character that's exactly that sort of person, but you haven't had the opportunity to actually demonstrate it in the game yet. The other player decides to try one last-ditch effort to save himself--something that by all rights shouldn't work. And rolls 3 20s (or something equally amazing), stealing the limelight from your Big Moment that you've been hoping for for however many weeks or months, and turning your Heroic Sacrifice into a Pointless Death. Or, that player cheats (because, while his character doesn't know help is on the way, he does), and says he failed to pull the rabbit out of the hat, letting you save the day. That's cheating. Assuming the player was subtle about it (so no one knew about the "assist"), would that still be bad? It's the antithesis of acting extra-special or taking away other people's share of fun.[I suspect this may have occurred occasionally in my current game. The very-skilled powergamer lying about his attack rolls so that the two less-experienced players get to contribute their "fair share", that is. But i don't have any evidence to support this, nor any reason to believe that anyone would care if it were occurring. While people *do* care when the powergamer outshines them through perfectly "legal" means. Our next campaign will be Dust Devils, so that isn't possible.]Another flavor of cheating that several seem to be overlooking is the type that is specifically in support of the group trust, not in violation of it. Some of us put other elements of the RPG experience ahead of fidelity to the rules. There's exactly one significant time when playing (as opposde to GMing) an RPG that i would've cheated, if i could've. I would've turned an instant-kill critical hit against my arch-nemesis into a non-fatal blow. Maiming, if i could've, but anything but a kill (even a miss) would've been preferable. That hit ruined the campaign for me; i hung on for about 2 more sessions, and then just sorta lost interest, despite a great GM, a generally-fun campaign, and all my friends playing in it. Because what i was getting out of the gaming were some thematic/dramatic/RPing elements that that completely killed for me. In fact, to try and put labels on it: control of my character (in this case, to make sure that he never succeeded in besting his nemesis) was, for me, far more important than consistent capabilities, or being at the same level as the other characters. Taking away my nemesis was as much a violation of the character--moreso, in fact--than taking away my characters abilities or magic items would've been.Or, to try another stab at codifying my point [i'm sort of working out how to express my point as the thread goes on]: when the rules don't support, or are at odds with, the social contract, cheating may be not only acceptable, but even desirable.</blockquote>

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