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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 9557382" data-attributes="member: 5889">This always comes back to the covenant between the DM and the players. A DM can always TPK the party, that is not hard (gods come down and just bitch clap the party).The hard part is crafting a fight that feels epic and tough, and either the players leave it going "we won but it was so close" or "we died, but if I had just nailed that one roll I think we would have had it". What you don't want is a party that goes "man....we never had a chance did we...what was the point of that?"So looking at the gold. The banish ability, since it does not specify any damage, we can assume that the ability normally does no more than what it says on the tin....knocks out the player for a round, returns them with no damage.Now....a clever DM looking to up the threat can then add in some spice on top...again either returning the player in the air, or maybe landing them on a hostile spot in the lair that does extra damage. But in doing that, the players now see what's up, and can either react to that ability with their spells and abilities and XYZ. It sets the challenge at a certain level (potentially higher than the base CR of the monster), but the cards are on the table and then the fight unfolds.The notion of sending the character to an "underground death box"....the concern is that its something the players don't see and therefore can't account for (unless perhaps the DM gave them hints or clues about this box....and so part of the challenge is the party finding and disabling it ahead of time). If you put a nasty damaging effect in teh room with the players, ok they can help each other overcome it. And hell even if its a lethal obstacle, at those levels players often have things that can help you recover even from death.But removing the character from the party entirely removes any chance to help, that character is simply dead and gone as far as the fight is concerned....which doesn't carry the same dramatic oomph and fun as "your buddy was just dropped into lava what do you do?"As always, this varies from table to table. Some tables have sadistic DMs that are enjoyed by equally sadistic players, where everyone wants the challenge ramped up to 11, and so that is the kind of games they enjoy. Nothign wrong with that. But its fair to say that a number of groups would not like that kind of challenge, and so its on the DM to use rules creatively to give their players fun challenges....but not abusive them and remove that fun.</blockquote>

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