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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 9558012" data-attributes="member: 326">Its a potential perpetual Banish until the fight becomes a 1 vs 1.Typically the best tactic will be to Banish the character with the highest HP or AC.Yes, resources that replenish after a long rest.If the CR 24 Ancient Dragon is not the culmination of or sum totality of the encounter then what is the DM doing for an encore...throwing the Tarrasque at them?Yes, I know that's your point and I disagree.If we ignore the Banish effect I don't believe its anything an Epic Tier party will get worried about.You made the point the Party may have already used some of their best spells/resources BEFORE they fight the dragon.I made the point the Dragon is built as a Highly Difficult threat on its own WITHOUT previous encounters.It auto-removes 1 PC from the fight and potentially locks them out of the fight while other characters remain.My issue with it is primarily that the High DC to Low Save ratio is completely broken at Epic Tier D&D. Fix that and I don't think its unfair, but as we know Core 2024 D&D does NOT fix it.We want a 3-4 round combat not a 10 round combat. Long slogs are never fun, which is why I am suggesting upping the damage "slightly" is a better solution to increasing hit points. As far as I can tell the hit points are fine. If we assume approx. 2/3rds of attacks hit and the typical epic character deals 60-75 damage per round (if everything hits), then that's around 45 damage (on average) per character per turn, 180 per round for 4 characters, 540 for 3 rounds, given the Dragon will beat most in Initiative we likely get to see the dragon deal at least 3 full rounds of attacks, maybe 4, against the four characters.The problem, as I see it, is Banish is an auto removal of 1 character, so that means we recalculate to 135 per turn (3 characters) for the heroes. Meaning the Dragon now gets (on average) 4-5 rounds against three characters...compounded by the fact the dragon gets to pick the three weakest (in terms of hit points) characters to attack.The collective HP of the PCs is around 600 (for a standard group). But remove the Fighter and you remove at least 1/3rd of the party's HP (and likely the character built to Tank with the highest AC).So without Banish the Dragon gets 3-4 turns to defeat 600 HP, with Banish the dragon gets 4-5 turns (at least) to defeat 400 HP against targets with lower AC.While not impossible, without Prep its improbable the Party can win. Which means its a TPK due to the design.Its not an issue because you have 80% more...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[after slicing one of the Black Knight's arms off]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001037/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">King Arthur</a>: Now stand aside, worthy adversary!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000092/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">Black Knight</a>: 'Tis but a scratch!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001037/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">King Arthur</a>: A scratch? Your arm's off!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000092/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">Black Knight</a>: No, it isn't.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001037/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">King Arthur</a>: What's that, then?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000092/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">Black Knight</a>: [after a pause] I've had worse.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001037/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">King Arthur</a>: You liar!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000092/?ref_=ttqu_qu" target="_blank">Black Knight</a>: Come on, you pansy!</li> </ul>An AC of 25 means the Dragon hits 65% of the time....35% chance of missing. Likely the Fighter has a better AC than the Wizards, which is why removing the Fighter (or Barbarian) with Banish is the optimum tactic.The Epic Fighter might have an AC of 26, 27, 28, 29, 30.Even assuming the Fighter has AC 25 the dragon misses one third of the time against it, but likely has an easier time hitting the other characters (maybe not the Rogue arguably I suppose), who also have less HP. Its like a win-win-win for the dragon. Party DPR is down*, party HP is massively down, party vulnerability is almost certainly down with lower AC's to hit. *Massively so in the case of a Fighter or Barbarian.</blockquote>

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