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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6404462" data-attributes="member: 4937">Let me just go ahead and provoke the firestorm.  I have no idea what your experience is, so I can only take it at your word that you have enjoyed random character generation in the instances you've experienced it.  Great.But in 30 years of gaming I've met tons of players that claimed that they actually like randomness.  In that same period I've met zero players that actually did.   Every single one has in fact been the sort of person that likes randomness because the believe at some level that they'll never be on the short end of the stick, and when they are they howl and have invariably developed techniques for mitigating the randomness - did I mention howling?  The situation is so bad that I would consider turning down any player that wanted to join my table who claimed to prefer random character generation on those grounds alone.  It would be a huge red flag.  What I've actually seen in play:a) Player prefers random character generation.... This is because the player is a habitual cheater, and by using 'random' character generation as a pretense, he can play characters which would otherwise never be approved - there by drawing disproportionate spot light to themselves.b) Player prefers random character generation... This is because the player primarily role plays in order to impose his will on his fellow players.  This is the kick that he gets out of playing, and by having disproportionate resources during character gen, he has more opportunities to bully the other PCs.c) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But in practice this is only true if the results produce something he considers acceptable, usually an above average character with perhaps at most one minor flaw.   If the random results produce something truly below average, he'll find a way to keep repeating character generation until he gets the results he actually wants.   These techniques will include whining to the DM about the unfairness of what he claimed to enjoy until the DM relents and lets him make another character or reroll select results.  Alternately, the DM holds his ground, he starts having his PC's commit suicide until he eventually gets a player he's more into.  This can be literally, "I fall on my sword.", six times in a row until he has an above average character.  This sort of thing led to the observation that although you can have random character generation, what you can't do is make the player play a character he ultimately doesn't want to play.  And note, it only takes ONE player like this in the group, before everyone else in the group starts reflecting on their own character and how functional in game terms the players social behavior actually is.   Why should that player get a better character than me solely because he was being rude?   It's a nightmare situation as a GM.d) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But only if rules are adopted that mitigate randomness to such a high degree that the results are predictable.  For example, for D&D using the Unearthed Arcana table meant to generate high level NPCs or straight up, "Roll 7d6 take the best three, rearrange stats to taste."  e) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But it turns out that the player has only played with GMs that use kid gloves and continually fudge on the player's behalf so that regardless of what is on their sheet, they are likely to succeed in virtually every endeavor anyway.  f) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But player is almost always exclusively the GM, and as such, really has no personal concerns with PC balance.  In fact, often the player likes weak PC's because that means his share of the story is correspondingly greater.g) Player claims to prefer random character generation... But this is because player in fact doesn't play his character.  Instead, the player is accustomed to playing a highly metagame where the fun is being disruptive, goofing off, subverting play, telling jokes, causing trouble, and generally enjoying himself by being the joker or jester.  He has adopted methods of drawing spotlight to himself that don't at all depend on the rules.  As such, he doesn't really care what is on his sheet, and if what is on his sheet is below average in ability then even better because it gives him an excuse for acting out the way that he wants to.   Usually this player has learned that the GM will run the game in such a way that he never has to accept consequences from his actions and his protagonist status (and the other PCs) protects him from being removed from play.  So who cares what the mechanics are, right?Glad to hear it.  Don't actually believe it; but if it is true, well it's good that someone is getting something valuable out of it.   Frankly though, when I hear a statement like, "we want disparity in play but we want it controlled and distributed fairly", my thought is, "How in the heck does that work?"   That's such a blatantly contradictory statement that I find it impossible to believe its made in full self-awareness.  How in the heck is arbitrary and capricious somehow morphed into "controlled" and "fair" in your vocabulary?   Logically, if it ways more than a duck, "it's a fair cop?"I don't deny that it would be possible to create a random chargen system that did distribute spotlight equally, but I've never seen it in practice.  Runequest in particular clearly belongs to the fantasy heartbreaker genera, and pretty clearly doesn't distribute spotlight equally.  (Although in practice, the distribution range is probably smaller than it is in some games like WFRP.) If you enjoyed it, it's probably because that never became a problem in actual play.   One nice thing about PnP RPGs is that they have plenty of ways to mitigate the problems with balance through direct GM management of the situation, player settable goals of play, and social contract.  It's also important to note that in shorter periods of play, balance disparities tend to be less important.   So yeah, it's possible to enjoy a highly unbalanced PnP RPG, but I would be highly mindful and reflective about why.</blockquote>

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