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Message: <blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6413411" data-attributes="member: 3192">Look at any game design book prior to 2000 (and some later) and you see that the Big Model doesn't have anything to do with game design at all. Nor does the postmodern critical theory he's borrowing as unquestionable certainty. These are theories, which us to say they are stories. They are us discerning reality. Not if you study games as mathematical constructs. I'm trying to be accurate here.If you understood where I'm coming from I think you'd be asking more acute questions. If anyone else was traveling down the same roads of the past in order to understand I think we'd actually have people on this forum who did understand more of what D&D is and where it came from. But if they are, they aren't expressing these ideas whatsoever.Neither of those occur in games. Immersionism is a failed attempt to define their gaming from a bunch of guys in 2001 or so in response to the Big Model and has since been sucked back into its one true wayism. Of course some OSR guys identify with it. It's all that's been left them from widely known contemporary theory. And I don't begrudge anyone understanding themselves through it. If you think I was claiming Bedrockgames was a storygamer, you've misread what I said.Players come up with theories, not stories. And they note them on their character log. Same with when they track time or location on maps. This is them theorizing what the referee has behind the screen. That's called game play. Story making it isn't. Story making is invention. Invention is used to come up with informed (hopefully) strategies to use in the game. Every player is continually discerning, tracking, comparing with others, and revising their current understanding. That's D&D.The Referee simply relates what has already be constructed without their decisions coming into it after the game starts. Quite like Mastermind. So the players can decipher the game.In no way is role playing about stories. This is an algorithm at best being discerned.You are completely off base here. There are no plots. Locations are game board constructs, not stages. Game pieces are instruments of the players, not personalities. Stories are not inevitable. Only religious true believers believe in inevitables. Please stop pushing story as if it had anything to do with the hobby.</blockquote>

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