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<blockquote data-quote="Bedrockgames" data-source="post: 6413496" data-attributes="member: 85555">I think we are largely quibbling over terms with the other points in your post and both of us already know we strongly disagree over the value and accuracy of forge terminology. On that subject I will just say I think 'narrative' is much more loaded and problematic than 'story' though perhaps I am bringing my background in history to that particular word. But on the above point, I think you are wrong and this points to why saying sandbox players are there for story is misguided. I don't know a lot of things but I do know sandbox players. There are sandbox players who would agree with the above statement but most would not. But the vast majority would say in a good sandbox finding your sister should never be a forgone conclusion just because it is in your background. If might happen, it might not. The GM gets to decide if finding her remains a possibility and where you would need to go to learn about it. You can certainly set out to find your sister, that doesn't mean you will encounter any clues or leads. For most sandbox players 'say yes' isn't something they expect and they are also not expecting a good story. Do they expect fun and excitement? Certainly they at least expect the opportunity for these things....but fun and excitement are not synonyms for story. I agree you can speak of in game events as story in the very broad meaning of the word, but then once you turn the word toward a more specific meaning to start arguing that RPGs are all about story and those that fail to tell good stories are not successful RPGs, I think the logic breaks down.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bedrockgames, post: 6413496, member: 85555"] I think we are largely quibbling over terms with the other points in your post and both of us already know we strongly disagree over the value and accuracy of forge terminology. On that subject I will just say I think 'narrative' is much more loaded and problematic than 'story' though perhaps I am bringing my background in history to that particular word. But on the above point, I think you are wrong and this points to why saying sandbox players are there for story is misguided. I don't know a lot of things but I do know sandbox players. There are sandbox players who would agree with the above statement but most would not. But the vast majority would say in a good sandbox finding your sister should never be a forgone conclusion just because it is in your background. If might happen, it might not. The GM gets to decide if finding her remains a possibility and where you would need to go to learn about it. You can certainly set out to find your sister, that doesn't mean you will encounter any clues or leads. For most sandbox players 'say yes' isn't something they expect and they are also not expecting a good story. Do they expect fun and excitement? Certainly they at least expect the opportunity for these things....but fun and excitement are not synonyms for story. I agree you can speak of in game events as story in the very broad meaning of the word, but then once you turn the word toward a more specific meaning to start arguing that RPGs are all about story and those that fail to tell good stories are not successful RPGs, I think the logic breaks down. [/QUOTE]

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