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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6415496" data-attributes="member: 87792">Eyewitness accounts matter.&nbsp; And if anyone has the right to define the term Story-Games then it's the person who runs the forum Story-games.com.&nbsp; Rather than people (like the RPG Pundit or, for that matter yourself) who use it to define games they don't like.That is what the term was created to cover.&nbsp; It has drifted since then.&nbsp; The only practical definition of a Storygame I'm aware of is &quot;A game produced by those people over there.&quot;The second is definitely not true - there is a difference between a game and a module.&nbsp; If you were to invent an entire game to play Tomb of Horrors in and boil down the game to only that which was relevant to ToH then that would qualify.&nbsp; As for Hillfolk being &quot;pretty obviously a storygame&quot;, not a bit of it.&nbsp; Until you called it one I hadn't seen anyone call it one.&nbsp; Hillfolk is certainly a Dramasystem.&nbsp; But where is the actual Story part of Hillfolk?&nbsp; It certainly draws on the Storygame tradition but is not itself one.&nbsp; You could certainly use Hillfolk as the engine underlying a storygame, but that's an entirely different matter.Then we are creating a strawman.&nbsp; Moving on.Congratulations.&nbsp; You've just claimed that <a href="http://buriedwithoutceremony.com/monsterhearts/" target="_blank">Monsterhearts</a>, which claims on the cover, to be a Storygame&nbsp; (and is so far as I am aware universally accepted by those who use the term for things they actually play) isn't one.&nbsp; Disproof by counterexample.And there goes the entire PBTA family.&nbsp; Although most of them, to be fair, aren't Storygames.Except where they aren't.&nbsp; See Monsterhearts for an example.<a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?657388-List-games-you-consider-storygames" target="_blank">And yet a lot of people consider Dogs a Storygame</a>.&nbsp; Not everyone does.It's certainly a CRPG.As is the boardgame Descent?D&amp;D may be an RPG and a good early one but it does not get to define the entire category.&nbsp; If the category excludes it it's wrong.&nbsp; All Tabletop RPGs are RPGs.&nbsp; Not all RPGs are Tabletop RPGs.And almost all of them are RPGs.You've never played sessions where you didn't roll a dice?&nbsp; It's a game with victory conditions that follow from the logic of the character in which you use the fiction of the setting while expected to do things the designer never thought of.In character victory conditions?&nbsp; And &quot;How can you use this ridiculous foam rubber prop&quot; isn't the same thing at all.What do you mean &quot;dictate the process of play&quot;?Alternatively: Thou shall not be the best at everything.&nbsp; There's nothing wrong with assuming high baseline competence.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6415496, member: 87792"] Eyewitness accounts matter. And if [I]anyone[/I] has the right to define the term Story-Games then it's the person who runs the forum Story-games.com. Rather than people (like the RPG Pundit or, for that matter yourself) who use it to define games they don't like. That is what the term was created to cover. It has drifted since then. The only practical definition of a Storygame I'm aware of is "A game produced by those people over [I]there[/I]." The second is definitely not true - there is a difference between a game and a module. If you were to invent an entire game to play Tomb of Horrors in and boil down the game to only that which was relevant to ToH then that would qualify. As for Hillfolk being "pretty obviously a storygame", not a bit of it. Until you called it one I hadn't seen anyone call it one. Hillfolk is certainly a Dramasystem. But where is the actual Story part of Hillfolk? It certainly draws on the Storygame tradition but is not itself one. You could certainly use Hillfolk as the engine underlying a storygame, but that's an entirely different matter. Then we are creating a strawman. Moving on. Congratulations. You've just claimed that [url=http://buriedwithoutceremony.com/monsterhearts/]Monsterhearts[/url], which claims on the cover, to be a Storygame (and is so far as I am aware universally accepted by those who use the term for things they actually play) isn't one. Disproof by counterexample. And there goes the entire PBTA family. Although most of them, to be fair, aren't Storygames. Except where they aren't. See Monsterhearts for an example. [url=http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?657388-List-games-you-consider-storygames]And yet a lot of people consider Dogs a Storygame[/url]. Not everyone does. It's certainly a CRPG. As is the boardgame Descent? D&D may be an RPG and a good early one [I]but it does not get to define the entire category.[/I] If the category excludes it it's wrong. All Tabletop RPGs are RPGs. Not all RPGs are Tabletop RPGs. And almost all of them are RPGs. You've never played sessions where you didn't roll a dice? It's a game with victory conditions that follow from the logic of the character in which you use the fiction of the setting while expected to do things the designer never thought of. In character victory conditions? And "How can you use this ridiculous foam rubber prop" isn't the same thing at all. What do you mean "dictate the process of play"? Alternatively: Thou shall not be the best at everything. There's nothing wrong with assuming high baseline competence. [/QUOTE]

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