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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6416167" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, what does &quot;playing a character&quot; mean?&nbsp; If it's simply a pawn with a list of skills, then Squad Leader becomes an RPG, as does Battletech and Blood Bowl.&nbsp; After all, a Blood Bowl character has a list of skills which the player uses to manipulate events in the game.&nbsp; It's too broad.&nbsp; Again, you keep talking about your specific game, which is only played at your table.&nbsp; What system are you using for this mystery game?&nbsp; Does the SYSTEM support this style of play or have you drifted it into something else?&nbsp; Of course you can play games this way.&nbsp; But, if I play Monopoly and start role playing, does that make Monopoly an RPG?&nbsp; Is World of Tanks an RPG simply because it includes some RPG elements?&nbsp; Conversely, if I strip out all the role playing (in the common sense of the word - assuming a role in a fictional setting, even if that is meant to be you, personally, in that fictional setting) from an RPG, does that make it not an RPG? No, of course not.&nbsp; All the notions of &quot;playing wrong&quot; and other value judgements are not part what what we're doing here.&nbsp; Saying D&amp;D is a Role Playing Game because it presumes that the players will create a character within the fictional world and that character will have goals and motivations within that fictional world doesn't mean that you can't play D&amp;D in other ways.&nbsp; It's just that D&amp;D does presume this to a large degree.&nbsp; As do virtually all RPG's.&nbsp; Once you no longer have that presumption of role assumption, you probably aren't talking about an RPG anymore.&nbsp; It doesn't matter how you use your Nissan 300ZX.&nbsp; You can do whatever the heck you want to it.&nbsp; But, when you buy a 300ZX, it's listed as a sports car.&nbsp; Because, well, it has all the features of a sports car.&nbsp; It is not listed as a family sedan.&nbsp; I can use it as a family sedan if I want to.&nbsp; I could use it as a really big paper weight if I wanted to.&nbsp; But, when talking about either sports cars or my 300ZX in particular, it's not helpful to say that my 300ZX isn't a sports car.&nbsp; I mean, look, virtually every single RPG published in the last thirty years, certainly since AD&amp;D 1e, has had a foreword section that says something to the effect of, &quot;What is an RPG&quot;.&nbsp; And virtually every single time, role assumption is the primary play assumption.&nbsp; When you play Vampire, it's assumed that you are going to try to portray your Tremere as a certain kind of Vampire.&nbsp; If you play D&amp;D, it's assumed that your half-orc barbarian will be played as a certain kind of character.&nbsp; Granted, you don't have to do this.&nbsp; You certainly don't have to.&nbsp; There is no have to in these presumptions.&nbsp; But, at the end of the day, the writers of the game are assuming that that's what your going to do.&nbsp; Don't play your paladin in a certain way?&nbsp; Come on En World and start a hundred page paladin alignment wank thread when your DM strips your Paladin powers.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />&nbsp; Don't play your fighter in a certain way, you are penalised during training and have to spend extra in game time and money to gain a level.&nbsp; On and on and on.&nbsp; How someone is playing the game is not relevant to trying to define the genre the game belongs to.&nbsp; You have to look at the game itself.&nbsp; Monopoly isn't a role playing game because there is absolutely no presumption of roll assumption.&nbsp; Same as Chess.&nbsp; D&amp;D is a role playing game because the rules presume you are going to assume a role.&nbsp; Again, there are fuzzy bits at the edges - is Tomb of Horrors a role playing game module or a Tactical RPG (I think the latter to be honest)?&nbsp; But, at the end of the day, we have to work from what the game says, not what someone claims they use the game for.&nbsp; Pounding in a nail with a screwdriver does not make the screwdriver a hammer.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6416167, member: 22779"] But, what does "playing a character" mean? If it's simply a pawn with a list of skills, then Squad Leader becomes an RPG, as does Battletech and Blood Bowl. After all, a Blood Bowl character has a list of skills which the player uses to manipulate events in the game. It's too broad. Again, you keep talking about your specific game, which is only played at your table. What system are you using for this mystery game? Does the SYSTEM support this style of play or have you drifted it into something else? Of course you can play games this way. But, if I play Monopoly and start role playing, does that make Monopoly an RPG? Is World of Tanks an RPG simply because it includes some RPG elements? Conversely, if I strip out all the role playing (in the common sense of the word - assuming a role in a fictional setting, even if that is meant to be you, personally, in that fictional setting) from an RPG, does that make it not an RPG? No, of course not. All the notions of "playing wrong" and other value judgements are not part what what we're doing here. Saying D&D is a Role Playing Game because it presumes that the players will create a character within the fictional world and that character will have goals and motivations within that fictional world doesn't mean that you can't play D&D in other ways. It's just that D&D does presume this to a large degree. As do virtually all RPG's. Once you no longer have that presumption of role assumption, you probably aren't talking about an RPG anymore. It doesn't matter how you use your Nissan 300ZX. You can do whatever the heck you want to it. But, when you buy a 300ZX, it's listed as a sports car. Because, well, it has all the features of a sports car. It is not listed as a family sedan. I can use it as a family sedan if I want to. I could use it as a really big paper weight if I wanted to. But, when talking about either sports cars or my 300ZX in particular, it's not helpful to say that my 300ZX isn't a sports car. I mean, look, virtually every single RPG published in the last thirty years, certainly since AD&D 1e, has had a foreword section that says something to the effect of, "What is an RPG". And virtually every single time, role assumption is the primary play assumption. When you play Vampire, it's assumed that you are going to try to portray your Tremere as a certain kind of Vampire. If you play D&D, it's assumed that your half-orc barbarian will be played as a certain kind of character. Granted, you don't have to do this. You certainly don't have to. There is no have to in these presumptions. But, at the end of the day, the writers of the game are assuming that that's what your going to do. Don't play your paladin in a certain way? Come on En World and start a hundred page paladin alignment wank thread when your DM strips your Paladin powers. :D Don't play your fighter in a certain way, you are penalised during training and have to spend extra in game time and money to gain a level. On and on and on. How someone is playing the game is not relevant to trying to define the genre the game belongs to. You have to look at the game itself. Monopoly isn't a role playing game because there is absolutely no presumption of roll assumption. Same as Chess. D&D is a role playing game because the rules presume you are going to assume a role. Again, there are fuzzy bits at the edges - is Tomb of Horrors a role playing game module or a Tactical RPG (I think the latter to be honest)? But, at the end of the day, we have to work from what the game says, not what someone claims they use the game for. Pounding in a nail with a screwdriver does not make the screwdriver a hammer. [/QUOTE]

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