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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6420322" data-attributes="member: 87792">Of&nbsp; course.&nbsp; This, of course, makes games such as AD&amp;D 2e and the whole&nbsp; of the WoD Storygames. In fact I'm not sure what you've got left if you&nbsp; take out the games with story elements.&nbsp; Possibly OD&amp;D.We're agreed here.&nbsp; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diceless_role-playing_game" target="_blank">And&nbsp; &quot;Diceless RPGs&quot; (technical term for RPGs with no randomisers) are&nbsp; definitely a thing including (amongst others) Amber, Nobilis, and a&nbsp; licensed Marvel game.</a>Objection!&nbsp; I've tried to throughout the thread - and most clearly <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?366955-Chess-is-not-an-RPG-The-Illusion-of-Game-Balance/page9&amp;p=6415678&amp;viewfull=1#post6415678" target="_blank">right here</a>.&nbsp;&nbsp; A game where the mechanics include a narrative structure and the games&nbsp; are planned to last for a limited number of sessions - in practice the&nbsp; games are generally based round the five act structure (it makes for&nbsp; better games than the three act structure).Nope.&nbsp; This is where the Storyteller System&nbsp; messed things up and poisoned the well a little.&nbsp; A good Storygame can&nbsp; have the players never leaving character to decide anything.&nbsp; For this&nbsp; I'm going to cite My Life With Master, Monsterhearts, and Montsegur&nbsp; 1244.In Fiasco the PCs need to set the scenes.&nbsp; There is a case to be made that Fiasco is a Storytelling game without&nbsp; being an RPG.&nbsp; But MLWM and Monsterhearts both have fairly orthodox&nbsp; GMs, and Montsegur is on a pre-plotted railroad where you play your role&nbsp; to the bitter end and is still deep and challenging; you're just&nbsp; dealing with overwhelming forces.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6420322, member: 87792"] Of course. This, of course, makes games such as AD&D 2e and the whole of the WoD Storygames. In fact I'm not sure what you've got left if you take out the games with story elements. [I]Possibly[/I] OD&D. We're agreed here. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diceless_role-playing_game"]And "Diceless RPGs" (technical term for RPGs with no randomisers) are definitely a thing including (amongst others) Amber, Nobilis, and a licensed Marvel game.[/URL] Objection! I've tried to throughout the thread - and most clearly [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?366955-Chess-is-not-an-RPG-The-Illusion-of-Game-Balance/page9&p=6415678&viewfull=1#post6415678"]right here[/URL]. A game where the mechanics include a narrative structure and the games are planned to last for a limited number of sessions - in practice the games are generally based round the five act structure (it makes for better games than the three act structure). Nope. This is where the [I]Storyteller System[/I] messed things up and poisoned the well a little. A good Storygame can have the players never leaving character to decide anything. For this I'm going to cite My Life With Master, Monsterhearts, and Montsegur 1244. In Fiasco the PCs need to set the scenes. There is a case to be made that Fiasco is a Storytelling game [I]without[/I] being an RPG. But MLWM and Monsterhearts both have fairly orthodox GMs, and Montsegur is on a pre-plotted railroad where you play your role to the bitter end and is still deep and challenging; you're just dealing with overwhelming forces. [/QUOTE]

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