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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6420870" data-attributes="member: 87792">And even Ron Edwards has given up on that.My take is that it's simple.&nbsp; Roleplaying games are broader than any model can be (which is where the Big Model failed - it devolved into a theory that explained the presence of invisible pink hippomen and square circles).&nbsp; And as such models will not actually cover the spectrum of games; all they can do is highlight things and lead to a better understanding of a subset.&nbsp; (And from this perspective GNS was a success - the S part was a failure, but G was useful as a pushback against the &quot;Rollplaying not Roleplaying&quot; crowd and a focus on N (which was most of what Edwards and the Forge were interested in) lead to interesting things).A contour map is a very useful thing as long as I don't confuse it for the whole territory.And that's what's wrong with trying to use Storytelling Game for Roleplaying Games that also involve at least some author stance.&nbsp; That collaborative writing is numerically a much bigger field than tabletop RPGs.&nbsp; And Polaris and Kingdom from within the RPG community I've both heard described as storytelling without roleplaying per se.&nbsp;&nbsp; (I really must get round to reading Kingdom/Microscope).Using &quot;storytelling game&quot; for a subset of tabletop RPGs is like using &quot;Football&quot; for a hockey rules variant in which everyone is also allowed to kick the ball.&nbsp; To me this is ridiculous, and the only purpose it appears to serve is to attempt to exclude people.Possibly so <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; And as you point out this is actually an independent factor from whether or not something's an RPG.It's a bit more than that.&nbsp; In Pawn Stance play, following the logic of your character's characterisation into making what you know to be bad choices is simply bad play.&nbsp; In Actor Stance play picking good choices against the logic of your character's characterisation is known as metagaming.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6420870, member: 87792"] And even Ron Edwards has given up on that. My take is that it's simple. Roleplaying games are broader than any model can be (which is where the Big Model failed - it devolved into a theory that explained the presence of invisible pink hippomen and square circles). And as such models will not actually cover the spectrum of games; all they can do is highlight things and lead to a better understanding of a subset. (And from this perspective GNS was a success - the S part was a failure, but G was useful as a pushback against the "Rollplaying not Roleplaying" crowd and a focus on N (which was most of what Edwards and the Forge were interested in) lead to interesting things). A contour map is a very useful thing as long as I don't confuse it for the whole territory. And that's what's wrong with trying to use Storytelling Game for Roleplaying Games that also involve at least some author stance. That collaborative writing is numerically a much bigger field than tabletop RPGs. And Polaris and Kingdom from within the RPG community I've both heard described as storytelling without roleplaying per se. (I really must get round to reading Kingdom/Microscope). Using "storytelling game" for a subset of tabletop RPGs is like using "Football" for a hockey rules variant in which everyone is also allowed to kick the ball. To me this is ridiculous, and the only purpose it appears to serve is to attempt to exclude people. Possibly so :) And as you point out this is actually an independent factor from whether or not something's an RPG. It's a bit more than that. In Pawn Stance play, following the logic of your character's characterisation into making what you know to be bad choices is simply bad play. In Actor Stance play picking good choices against the logic of your character's characterisation is known as metagaming. [/QUOTE]

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