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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Olive" data-source="post: 1209860" data-attributes="member: 1297">Of course he agrees with you which is why he says that that saying that Sci-Fi and Fantasy are fundamentally different is untrue.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Ouch. Of course I think it was one of the few things I've had recomended on this board that actually lived up to and surpassed expectations, but different strokes and all that.That of course doesn't stop there being 'benign' heirarchies among the fellowship, and the 'goodies'.Except that the main heirachical status quo is the relationship between man and servant, or in this case hobbit and servant, shown by Sam and Frodo. To argue that the Shire had no heirarchies demonstrates a somewhat cursory reading in and of itself. Interesting point about Gondor, but with the wizards (which I've slipped for space) I think that there are heirarchies that aren't based on domination, but that can still be seen as bad if you are uncomfortable with heriarchy. To discuss this further gets dangerously close to discussing politics, but it's hard not to do that when discussing the ideas of someone like Meiville whose work is so politically informed. In fact, your point about radicalism for its own sake further down pretty much demonstrates what I'm talking about here. To discuss that further means discussing politics, and I'm a big believer in a politics free ENWorld.On this, I think we might have to agree to disagree. Again, hard moral choices are amde in LotR, but that doesn't in and of itself disallow the possibility that Tolkien demonstrates a liking for heirarchies.The other side of this coin is that Tolkein, who was involved in WW2, was to personally involved to have had any real emotional distance form it and therefore lacks the ability to make any kind of rational comment on it, unlike Meilville, who in case it matters, is as highly educated as Tolkein was. One comment about 'War beign heck' is not the same as not glorifying war.'trendy poseur' isn't a particulalry helpful line for anything expect exposing your bias. It doesn't really mean anything as a term of analysis. That goes for the epithets used in the last paragraph too.This is more or less how I feel too. I like Tolkein, I like Meilville and I think there's a place for all of it in this world. I can see critiques of both being easy to make. I guess the difference between me and Joshua on this is that I do like to challenged by my reading. Not all the time, but I almost always enjoy something that challenges me on some level mor ethan something that doesn't.</blockquote>

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