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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8545127" data-attributes="member: 67338">I'm sure I will get accused of "white room" theory crafting...how do you calculate non damage causeing spells into combat encounters?So Save-or-suck is the idea that you have to succeed or it's terrible usually when we're talking about it with spells what it means is “I cast a certain spell” *gestures forward with his hand” and the enemy has to make a save and if the don't it's really really bad but if the do nothing really happensso hold person/hold monster can take a monster out of the encounter for 1+ rounds....[sblock=2nd level spell]Hold Person is great<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It’s a wisdom save which is a poor save for a lot of humanoids.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Adding levels to the spell adds more target.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">In most campaigns humanoids remain common opponents.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Hitting a held foe is an auto-crit. (in melee)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Your save DC will scale as you level, but many of your foes Wisdom saves don’t scale at all and most of the ones that do scale don’t scale well.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">That 4 CR Hobgoblin Devastor it’s got a +1 Wis save.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">That 12 CR Warlord a +1 Wis save.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Even that 9 CR Necromancer has a mere +5 wisdom save, which by the time you are 8th level it’s around a 50% chance of failure.</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It’s available to all primary spell casters</li> </ol>[/sblock]in a campaign (and forget white room I have played in and run such games) where half or more of the high level encounters were 'non monster' monsters (hobgoblins, humans, elfs, dwarfs, dragonborn)suggestion, Hideous laughter, and web can all incapacitate in one way or another a target. at low levels casters can only do this 1 or 2 times a day and it eats into there ability to do other things.  at mid levels these are pittance costs.higher level ones are worst... banishment has been used SO many times to just end non legendary encounters (both by me and my PCs)so the fighter can throw a ton of damage, and can hit well, the wizard can (with cantrips) throw about 1/2 that damage with the same ratio to hit, a warlock can keep up with the fighter at will... but ON TOP of that they can cast monster ending spells.is there anything a fighter can do as powerful as this first level spell "The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or fall prone, becoming incapacitated and unable to stand up for the duration." at 20th level a fighter can swing 4 times action surge swing 4 more times and second wind to get 1d10+20hp back... 8 attacks and heal is most likely the best round of combat a fighter will ever have (giving a 22 str +3 weapon and power attacking (and remember that is -5 to hit) that is 2d6+19 reroll 1's and 2's so minimum damage is 25 per hit max is 31) the best round a 1st level wizard can have is targeting someone with a -1 wis save with laugh and having a DC 12 so they need a 13+ to make the save (60% chance it lands and 60% chance it lasts a second round) taking a monster right out of the fight even if they have 10,000hp</blockquote>

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