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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8545142" data-attributes="member: 6795602">There are a number of ways.&nbsp; My personal favorite is to determine how much damage the control spell saved you.&nbsp; This is a metric that can also be used for extra single target damage and even AOE damage.On average a 2nd level hold person won't affect an enemy very many rounds (especially with it's initial miss chance factored in).&nbsp; So it doesn't take much damage to actually equal the impact of a typical level 2 hold person.&nbsp; What is typically noticed in my experience is when the spell works and keeps working it trivializes encounters, but this is selective memory IMO as it's rarely remembered when it failed to work altogether.Or do nothing.Hideous Laughter isn't any better than a level 2 hold person.&nbsp; Web is a bit better due to the AOE.&nbsp; But it doesn't actually disable it just restrains which for some enemies might be effectively the same thing but for many it won't be either.A wizard doesn't get anywhere near 1/2 the fighters damage with a cantrip.&nbsp; The fighter has some combination ofsubclass features/action surges/magic weapons/buffs/feats/etc that all increases the fighters damage far above twice a wizard cantrip.I'm all for agreeing the wizard is stronger especially in late game, but give the Fighter his due.Yes.&nbsp; He can attack and kill the enemy.&nbsp; Dead is the best condition.It's not even remotely the same thing.&nbsp; I fully agree control is good.&nbsp; It's strong.&nbsp; But IMO it isn't to the level you are making it out to be.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 8545142, member: 6795602"] There are a number of ways. My personal favorite is to determine how much damage the control spell saved you. This is a metric that can also be used for extra single target damage and even AOE damage. On average a 2nd level hold person won't affect an enemy very many rounds (especially with it's initial miss chance factored in). So it doesn't take much damage to actually equal the impact of a typical level 2 hold person. What is typically noticed in my experience is when the spell works and keeps working it trivializes encounters, but this is selective memory IMO as it's rarely remembered when it failed to work altogether. Or do nothing. Hideous Laughter isn't any better than a level 2 hold person. Web is a bit better due to the AOE. But it doesn't actually disable it just restrains which for some enemies might be effectively the same thing but for many it won't be either. A wizard doesn't get anywhere near 1/2 the fighters damage with a cantrip. The fighter has some combination ofsubclass features/action surges/magic weapons/buffs/feats/etc that all increases the fighters damage far above twice a wizard cantrip. I'm all for agreeing the wizard is stronger especially in late game, but give the Fighter his due. Yes. He can attack and kill the enemy. Dead is the best condition. It's not even remotely the same thing. I fully agree control is good. It's strong. But IMO it isn't to the level you are making it out to be. [/QUOTE]

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