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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8545168" data-attributes="member: 67338">yeah, I had someone a few years ago (maybe 10) call control preempitve healing and calculated the damage the enemy could do in the missed action/actions as if it was healing.I mean that depends on the save DC and the modifier of the save... some CR10+ till have 8 wis and are not prof... it is crazy (one reason I liked 4e everything scales)The most memorable experience I have is the time it kept failing.[spoiler] in 3.5 we had someone who wanted to be the OP optimized wizard and preped almost nothing but SoD and SoS spells... and the DM made so many saves to no effect... like "Darn I only have a +3 will save I need a 19 to make that" followed by a 19... it was memorable becuse it was so strange... we had gotten used to even non optimized spell casters getting 50% SoD effects off but that was 2 editions ago [spoiler]however that 'rare' take a monster out of the encounter is something that happens... and if a wizard can take a threat out with a single 1st level spells no matter the hitpoints 5% of the time that is already cutting into the fighter being best at combat a little (and I don't belive a well played wizard, not even optimized just well built/played has only a 5% chance of it)right and last night my level 7 armor artificer (yeah not a fighter but our front line combatant in this game) made 3 attacks per round (thunder punch, thunder punch, bonus action off hand thunder punch) 2 rounds in a row and missed all 6 attacks... it's rare for me with my 19 Int (head band of int... well crown but it's a long story) to miss all my attacks in 1 round let alone 2, but it still was 'do nothing' just as much as if the wizard threw 2 SoD/SoS spells and they made the saves.this is a problem with spell levels and some getting legacy levels as well (maybe beyond [USER=84112]@HammerMan[/USER] thread) because why is a 1st level spell no better then a 2nd but no worse either... shouldn't the 2nd level spell automatically be better?it depends on the fighter build and the wizard build... but multi D12's from toll the dead can easily match a longsword and shield fighter let alone be half...fighter makeing 3 attacks for 1d8+4 damage per hit (3d8+12 25 if all three hit) compaired to the wizard doing 3d12 necrotic 13 damage seems to me to be just at half... and the wizard only needs 1 roll to 'hit' (it's a save) the fighter needs 3another problem (and why I hate crit fumble rules) is the more dice you need to roll the more low numbers you will get (in theory 50% of the time you should roll less then 11 and 5% of the time you should get a 1)if over the course of 100 combat rounds you rely on 100 rolls you should be counting on 1-9 (bad roll to hit good roll if someone is saving vs your effect) 45 times. if you rely on 300 rolls you will have that 1-9 135 times...now this bites the wizard too... the fighter at level 5 makes 2 attacks and the wizard uses everyone's favorite spell FIREBALL and catchs 4 enemies in it... that is 4 saves for half.  However baring a few outliers that is still half damage where a miss form the fighter is 0 damage.um... doesn't the wizard ALSO have subclass features/class features/ magic implments/ buffs/ feats ect that increase the damage? why count the fighter stuff and not the wizard...I also notice we skipped the warlock part.eldritch blast is 1 2 3 and 4 attacks and with 1/7th your invocations can add your cha to damage... at that point that caster at will has 1d10+magic+buff+stat and that is equal to a fighter with a d10 weapon (better then one with a d8 weapon but not as good as one with a d12 or 2d6 weapon...but real close)warlocks still have 2-4 1st-5th level spell slots per short rest, and 0-4 6th+ slots (depending on level)yeah, the fighter is cool with average damage. In a given round I am 70% sure that a fighter (especially after 3 attacks come online) can do more single target damage.  that other 30% of the time the caster had to use a big resource to deal more damage.no... the wizard can take a cr100 1,000,000,000 hp target out if they fail there save.   is that likely (no), is it possible (yes)what is WAY more probable and likely is at level 1 the wizard can take out 1 target and the fighter can take out 1 target... the problem is at level 5+ monster hp goes up faster then fighter damage (outside of the most optimized builds) but that wizard still can in some fights 1 shot to a weak save.1st this is a team based game so the wizard control does work best when teamed with a damage dealer. However 2 casters can speck out 1 control 1 damage. 2 martial classes can not. there is no control.[/spoiler][/spoiler]</blockquote>

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