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Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8545195" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>Yea, it also let's you compare healing to control to damage. Essentially it creates a common currency to compare with.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If your point is that against certain specific enemies with very low wisdom saves that control is much better then sure, I agree. But that doesn't seem to be more than tangentially relevant to the discussion I thought we were having - which was about how such low level control spells 'typically' compare to the damage the Fighter is doing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Single Target Control spells completely fail orders of magnitude more often than a multi attack character fails to connect with any attacks. Making the point that attack actions can fail too completely misses that nuance. </p><p></p><p></p><p>No. Spells are situationally strong or weak. One of the balancing factors to spell casting is that spells won't necessarily always work. That's part of why versatility and increasing spells known is also a path toward more combat power.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you leave off everything else that increases the fighters damage then I fully agree. I just don't think it's fair to leave off those other things. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are fewer of those things for the wizard that increase cantrip damage. And the ones that do don't increase them in magnitude as much as those things increase the fighters.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed it was skipped as Warlocks are irrelevant when talking fighter damage vs wizard cantrip damage?</p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to be making points as if they fully support your conclusion. I agree with most of the points, but not what they mean in relation to your conclusion. </p><p></p><p>In practice, Hideous Laughter and Hold Person either take enemies out of combat very little on average OR they are used infrequently due to the circumstances where they could take enemies out many rounds coming up very rarely. In either event, their impact on the Fighter vs Wizard dynamic is extremely minor.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What's most probable is that the wizard avoids using those level 1-2 spells as they take up his concentraion slot and almost any level 3+ spell is better for his concentration. We are talking high level wizards here right?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't disagree with this. I think control is damn good. I just think you are overselling it a bit compared to damage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 8545195, member: 6795602"] Yea, it also let's you compare healing to control to damage. Essentially it creates a common currency to compare with. If your point is that against certain specific enemies with very low wisdom saves that control is much better then sure, I agree. But that doesn't seem to be more than tangentially relevant to the discussion I thought we were having - which was about how such low level control spells 'typically' compare to the damage the Fighter is doing. Single Target Control spells completely fail orders of magnitude more often than a multi attack character fails to connect with any attacks. Making the point that attack actions can fail too completely misses that nuance. No. Spells are situationally strong or weak. One of the balancing factors to spell casting is that spells won't necessarily always work. That's part of why versatility and increasing spells known is also a path toward more combat power. If you leave off everything else that increases the fighters damage then I fully agree. I just don't think it's fair to leave off those other things. There are fewer of those things for the wizard that increase cantrip damage. And the ones that do don't increase them in magnitude as much as those things increase the fighters. Indeed it was skipped as Warlocks are irrelevant when talking fighter damage vs wizard cantrip damage? You seem to be making points as if they fully support your conclusion. I agree with most of the points, but not what they mean in relation to your conclusion. In practice, Hideous Laughter and Hold Person either take enemies out of combat very little on average OR they are used infrequently due to the circumstances where they could take enemies out many rounds coming up very rarely. In either event, their impact on the Fighter vs Wizard dynamic is extremely minor. What's most probable is that the wizard avoids using those level 1-2 spells as they take up his concentraion slot and almost any level 3+ spell is better for his concentration. We are talking high level wizards here right? I don't disagree with this. I think control is damn good. I just think you are overselling it a bit compared to damage. [/QUOTE]
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