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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8545222" data-attributes="member: 67338">yeah. One day I would love to see someone with really good analytical/math/statistics do a real comperason of all of it... that could be me but it most likely wont be. if they were all wisdom saves sure... (and it sin't like 3.5 where there were 10 options per save that were SoS/SoD) but by 9th level casters can spread the love on preped spells to different saves.and by no means do I mean casters auto win every encounter.the problem isn't "Hey 1 in a million shot of it working" we are talking about some encounters in a WAY more then a 1% chance.okay, what do you think the odds are of a wizard landing 1 good SoS/SoD spell per day? how many rounds do you think the fighter hits with both attacks 1 attack or no attacks in a given day? now I will go out on a limb and say neither of us know the answer becuse there are WAY too many variables. yes, and that is a versatiluty and power that the class the is supposed to excel at combat can't do..what did I leave off? 1d8+4 can be a +1 sword with a 16 str or a magic non plus weapon with an 18str... both seemed resonable for a 11th level fighter. I mean at max he would have str 20 and a +3 sword right... so +8?the main + to fighters is +1/2/3 weapon and the main way to increase cantrips is +1/2/3 focus...  fighters can add stat bonus (but again we skip that so can warlocks)since the conversation is caster vs non caster this seems a strange line to drawI question what makes you think that save or suck spells are a) infrequently land and b) rarely used? defualt basic caster starts with a 15 stat, increse it at 4th and 8th and at 9th level has a 19 (+4) at 9th level prof is +4 if you have nothing else increasing the DC of your spells that makes the DC 16. there are 6 saves. How many enemies will have even half of them (3) at +6 or higher for it to be 50/50? defualt basic melee combat class (so this can still be a warlock, bard or cleric that still has those 5th level spell slots) that starts with a 16 attack stat and lands at 20 by 9th level has +9 to hit and +5 to damage. most (I think almost all... including warlock bard and cleric that still have 5th level spell slots) can make 2 attacks.yes, but these are things they can do that DON'T use up those high level slots... I can't believe that anyone is going to seriusly tell me that even a 20th level fighter or 20th level rogue can put out as effective a round as a 5th level spell. heck most non optimized 20th level fighters if given 3 rounds (and remember that includes 2 action surges so 12 attacks) can give most 6th level spells a run for there moeny.   the problem is that at the end of the day the argument that "wizards (or cleric or bard or warlock that can keep up im melee at least close all day anyway) shine 1 or 2 times with high level spells then suck" went out the window with 2e.  Casters fluxuate. They have omg game changing rounds, they have great rounds, they have good rounds and they have slightly below average rounds.  Martial classes have average to good rounds with a lucky great round thrown in here or there.over all damage is great... but the ability to CHOOSE round by round "Do I cast a control spell here, or do I cast a high damage save for half spell, or do I cast a cantrip and do slightly below average damage" is being compared to "Do I nova for a ton of potential damage, or do I just truck along for good damage"</blockquote>

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