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Chris Perkins doesn't use Passive Insight
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5730832" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I don't think 4e is intended to make 'talky stuff' just some kind of formality of the game that you shove under the rug with a couple die rolls so you can get on with it though.</p><p></p><p>I mean, looking at your Zark example: Clearly the PCs have plenty of reasons to be suspicious of the NPC and the players have perfectly adequate information so they should see that. The whole Bluff/Insight thing IMHO is pretty much peripheral here. There were so many red flags (at least the way you tell it, the players might have for some reason seen it differently, that does happen) that regardless of how convincing the NPC was a prudent character would have considered the possibility of betrayal and should reasonably have taken precautions. For whatever reason the players didn't do that. Maybe they were playing characters that are fools, maybe they were a bit clueless, etc. It doesn't matter. Having the DM say "You think he's lying" couldn't have made it MORE obvious.</p><p></p><p>In a more general sense I think Passive Insight is just a fine way to have the characters sometimes pick up on something extra and the guy with high Insight gets rewarded that way more often. I dont' see a problem there. The DM can toss Bluff checks at whatever bonus behind his screen any old time he wants. </p><p></p><p>If a player thinks to have his character "be suspicious" and look for lies then he can throw an Insight check whenever he wants. If the guy is lying he might realize that, or he might not, in which case Bluff says the NPC is convincing. If the NPC DIDN'T Bluff and is telling the truth then I'd just have the result of the check be a moderate check of the PC's level and if he passes it he's sure the truth is being told and if not he's unsure, then it is up to the player to draw the correct or incorrect conclusions.</p><p></p><p>Naturally it can be advantageous for the DM to cast these dice to avoid meta-gaming, but I haven't always found it necessary. Now and then I'll toss dice and use them in place of the player's roll just to give them some realistic sense of possible doubt.</p><p></p><p>I mostly agree with KD in terms of what surprises are about. It is kind of pointless to keep things hidden or play obvious ploys that won't seem surprising to the players. It is more interesting to have them be situations where the players finally figure something out and they say "ohhh yeah! That makes sense, thing are really like X, not Y." That MIGHT discomfit the PCs and upset or alter their plans, but the object isn't particularly to mess them over, and some surprises will probably be good for them. OTOH now and then missing something will land you in a pickle. It should hopefully just be an INTERESTING pickle that presents new directions for the story to go in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5730832, member: 82106"] I don't think 4e is intended to make 'talky stuff' just some kind of formality of the game that you shove under the rug with a couple die rolls so you can get on with it though. I mean, looking at your Zark example: Clearly the PCs have plenty of reasons to be suspicious of the NPC and the players have perfectly adequate information so they should see that. The whole Bluff/Insight thing IMHO is pretty much peripheral here. There were so many red flags (at least the way you tell it, the players might have for some reason seen it differently, that does happen) that regardless of how convincing the NPC was a prudent character would have considered the possibility of betrayal and should reasonably have taken precautions. For whatever reason the players didn't do that. Maybe they were playing characters that are fools, maybe they were a bit clueless, etc. It doesn't matter. Having the DM say "You think he's lying" couldn't have made it MORE obvious. In a more general sense I think Passive Insight is just a fine way to have the characters sometimes pick up on something extra and the guy with high Insight gets rewarded that way more often. I dont' see a problem there. The DM can toss Bluff checks at whatever bonus behind his screen any old time he wants. If a player thinks to have his character "be suspicious" and look for lies then he can throw an Insight check whenever he wants. If the guy is lying he might realize that, or he might not, in which case Bluff says the NPC is convincing. If the NPC DIDN'T Bluff and is telling the truth then I'd just have the result of the check be a moderate check of the PC's level and if he passes it he's sure the truth is being told and if not he's unsure, then it is up to the player to draw the correct or incorrect conclusions. Naturally it can be advantageous for the DM to cast these dice to avoid meta-gaming, but I haven't always found it necessary. Now and then I'll toss dice and use them in place of the player's roll just to give them some realistic sense of possible doubt. I mostly agree with KD in terms of what surprises are about. It is kind of pointless to keep things hidden or play obvious ploys that won't seem surprising to the players. It is more interesting to have them be situations where the players finally figure something out and they say "ohhh yeah! That makes sense, thing are really like X, not Y." That MIGHT discomfit the PCs and upset or alter their plans, but the object isn't particularly to mess them over, and some surprises will probably be good for them. OTOH now and then missing something will land you in a pickle. It should hopefully just be an INTERESTING pickle that presents new directions for the story to go in. [/QUOTE]
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