Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr_Ruminahui" data-source="post: 4971700" data-attributes="member: 81104">Well, you see, there's your mistake - never expect to be able to post anything on the internet, no matter how reasonable, and have everyone agree with you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  And if you are surprised, can I now take my surprise round against you? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Light Phoenix, I disagree with you - the only reason it specifically mentions those acting as getting turns is because they are the only ones whose turns really matter.  Additionally:- It doesn't say that the surprised ones don't get turns, but simply don't get actions on their turns - look at page 277 on the page of conditions - compare stunned, unconscious and surprised - they use identical language (well, except the bit about free actions in the surprised condition, which is wrong).  - The rules specifically describe it as a "round", not simply as extra actions, and the rules make clear that in a round a creature ALWAYS takes the beginning and end of their turns (see pp. 268-69).That said, I'm not at your gaming table, so I don't care how you play it.However you rule it, I think its important to be consistent.  No turn = no beginning of turn = no ongoing damage in the surprise round.  The party may be disappointed to find that that acid arrow that the wizard cast doesn't do ongoing damage to that nice clump of foes the wizard targetted.As well, it won't always be the monsters who are being surprised - while a party may be disappointed when their sleep doesn't work like they expected, I think they would be equally pissed by being surprised and stunned with no way to do anything for 2+ rounds.One thing that is important to realise, that the save system of 4e with the condition being imposed on the attacker's turn and ended (by a successful save) on the defenders can result in a number of situations that "feel wierd" - one of which is the surprise round described by the OP.  The "feel wierd" moment was likely hightened by surprise rounds being rather anemic in 4e - one typically can't even use a melee power in them, as one has to charge as their sole action.Another example of a feel wierd situation generated by the save/condition rules is if you hold an action and attack a monster on its turn - if you impose an effect on it (such as ongoing damage with, say, acid arrow), since it gets a save at the end of its turn, it may very well save before it suffers any ill-effects.Now, if one of those "feel wierd" situations surprises the players, I can understand how they might be upset.  If they are aware of the way the mechanic causes "feel wierd" moments, it becomes a matter of tactics - rather than using sleep in the surprise round/holding an action with acid arrow, you use some other power instead.</blockquote>

Verification