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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack the Lad" data-source="post: 6362182" data-attributes="member: 6777377">My apologies in advance for the length of this post - it grew and grew in the writing as I looked back over the thread - but there is a whole lot to respond to.Okay. Leaving aside the Eldritch Knight (because we're talking about non-spellcasters) let's look at what the Fighter gets that helps it in the Exploration and Social pillars:As a Champion:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A +1 to +3 (at level 17) bonus to Str/Dex/Con checks that you don't get proficiency in.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This constitutes a 5% - 10% increase in your chance to succeed at a task that requires one of these checks and does not allow proficiency for 95% of your career. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At level 17, when you reach the dizzying heights of +3 to those checks, the Bard gains access to level 9 spells. Like True Polymorph, which allows it to permanently transform into a creature whose CR is equal to or less than their level. Like, say, an Adult Red Dragon with 27 Strength, 25 Con, blindsight, darkvision, an 80ft fly speed, 256 HP, fire breath, frightful presence and so on. Or Shapechange, which lets them turn into one while keeping all their own spellcasting as well. </li> </ul>  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The ability to Running Long Jump between 1 and 5 feet further.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">How often, in your experience, would someone find themselves glad to have this ability? </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Let's look at the ideal use case: an impassable chasm 21-25 feet across. In theory, the Fighter can leap it where nobody else could, taking a rope with him to allow his companions to cross after him. Truly a Remarkable Athlete and a valuable member of the party! </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At level 3, when the Fighter gains Remarkable Athlete, he can jump at most 20 ft (if he's a race with a +2 Str bonus). The Wizard, with 8 Strength, can cast Jump on himself and jump 24 ft - he's been able to do so from level 1. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At level 4, the Fighter can optionally increase his strength, bringing his maximum potential jump up to 23 ft. Still short of the 8 Str Wizard with Jump, though. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At level 6, the Fighter can increase his strength again, topping out at 20 Str and a 25 ft Running Long Jump. That's 1 foot further than the 8 Strength Wizard! Unfortunately, the Wizard started casting Fly at level 5. </li> </ul>       </li> </ul>As a Battle Master:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficiency with one type of artisan's tools<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Anybody can gain this with a background, and Wizards honestly should. It takes a Fighter 300 days to craft a suit of Plate Armour, but a level 7 Wizard with blacksmithing proficiency can do it instantaneously using Fabricate. </li> </ul>  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The ability to spend one minute studying a creature to determine if its Str/Dex/Con/AC/HP/level(s) are higher or lower than yours.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What's a situation in which you have time to use this ability that you would want to? When is the information useful to know? I have played quite a lot, mostly at high levels, and our Fighters have never used this ability. </li> </ul>       </li> </ul>Can you explain to me how you feel these abilities are balanced against spellcasting, please?Firstly, in my experience, most encounters last 3 rounds. A Bard can only - even theoretically - use up half their spells in a 3 round encounter at levels 1-3. Beginning at level 15, they can cast a spell every round of 6 3-round encounters.That's nitpicking, though, and besides the actual point, which is that you only need 1 or 2 spells in most encounters. As Capricia mentioned upthread, a Bard adds more damage to the party over the course of an encounter by landing Faerie Fire (a level 1 spell) than a Fighter does with all his attacks. And that's the case from levels 1 to 20, because Advantage scales with the party's increased damage output.I agree. And casters are the ones who can prepare a whole new set of spells for the next goblin lair, whereas a Fighter is stuck using the same few maneuvers - or, if he is a Champion, nothing whatsoever that's new - not just for the next goblin lair, but for his entire adventuring career.  What is the highest level that you have played to, and what spells have casters in your game tended to use? Because even at level 8-10 as you mention a Wizard can be raising/controlling enough skeletons to beat the Fighter's DPR as a bonus action all day (6) with just 1 of their 16-20 spell slots, using Counterspell to shut down enemy casters, Fly to ignore enemies without ranged attacks (and passing Concentration checks to maintain it when they take damage from ranged attacks 97.8% of the time), Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door etc etc etc.Out of combat, again at level 8-10, a Wizard can be casting Alarm, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Unseen Servant, Alter Self, Arcane Lock, Darkness, Detect Thoughts, Enlarge/Reduce, Gentle Repose, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Misty Step, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Shatter, Spider Climb, Suggestion, Fly, Gaseous Form, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Major Image, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Remove Curse, Sending, Tongues, Water Breathing, Control Water, Fabricate, Greater Invisibility, Leomund's Secret Chest, Locate Creature, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and Polymorph.A level 10 Wizard can 'only' have access to 24 of the spells above, in addition to any that he finds in the course of the campaign.But that's a hell of a lot of extremely powerful options, and non-casters have access to 0 of them.The Champion is functionally obsolete compared to the Battle Master.  Even if you are one of the (mythical?) people who get confused by  having more than one option and so use nothing but Feinting Attack, you  are better at 'swing sword all day' - the Champion's entire shtick - than  the Champion.This argument would hold more water if there were not 90+ pages of discrete, hard-coded "If I do X then Y happens" spells in 5e. Including ones that daze, stun etc.If  you're looking at a system that uses broad strokes to paint a general  picture and then relying on the players and DM to give it the details,  you would be looking at something more like Fate.  Before I address this specifically, what's  preventing the Wizard from saying "I rip open a bag of flour and throw  it at them, then blow it up with Fire Bolt" or any similar kind of  improvisation? There is just as much rules support for it.The specific scenario you posit is an excellent example of why one class having a list of spells  and another class being having the ability to do what the DM feels is  fair is a bad idea.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">By taking Disadvantage on his attack, the  player is far more likely to miss with it (equivalent to a -5 penalty  if the roll required to hit is between 8 and 14). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If they miss, they have taken Disadvantage for no upside. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In  a best-case scenario where they do land the attack even with  Disadvantage, the bonus next round only serves to 'even' out the penalty they took  last time. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">And it's always possible for the rake the player was attacking to be taken out before that player gets to act again. </li> </ul>If  you find that a fair, fun example of the beauty of 5e - even ignoring  the fact that you can do the same thing in any previous edition - I  don't know what to say."Every time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook."Yes - usually you will want to prepare your best spells.I  note that you have tried to move the goal posts since posting this by  claiming that you were talking about Concentration spells breaking when a  Wizard takes damage.That's clearly not the case, as you specify  'interrupted when attempting to cast the spell' in your original post.  There are no rules for this in 5e, and to me this seems to cast some  doubt on whether you have the actual play experience you are professing  to have."A  component pouch is a small, watertight leather belt pouch that has  compartments to hold all the material components and other special items  you need to cast your spells, except for those components that have a  specific cost."Nope. The spells that are being talked about as overpowered are overpowered even if they're the only one you have left.Nope.  There are plenty of spells that do not allow saves, (Contagion, Reverse  Gravity, Forcecage etc) and even creatures with Advantage on saving  throws against magical effects have weak saves that make it irrelevant. A  Stone Golem can never pass an Int or Cha save from a  level-appropriate caster, has a 28% chance of making a Dex save and only  a 36% chance of making a Wis save. This is a creature described as  'nearly impervious to spells'.This is stuff that becomes obvious  in actual play, but is not obvious if you have merely browsed the  material available so far and decided that it feels right: "Advantage on  saves against magic. That's pretty strong!"And that  the enemy is not immune/resistant to the type of damage that they deal,  that it does not fly or burrow or turn invisible or ethereal or have a  higher move speed than the Fighter etc etc.Can you give an  example from your actual play experience of a time that circumstances  conspired to render a caster less useful than a Fighter, please?</blockquote>

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