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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 6362560" data-attributes="member: 15700">Again, you're missing the point.&nbsp; the caster doesn't have access to the spells during actual game play.&nbsp; No matter how many short or long rests your caster takes, if he or she hasn't learned the knock spell, they don't have access to it during actual play.&nbsp; Ergo, they are not as good at, nor can they replace the rogue when opening locks.&nbsp; Ergo, your claim is objectively false.&nbsp; And that's not even factoring the other mitigating factors (like not having it prepared even if they had learned it, or like not enough spell slots available even if they had prepped it, etc).That's not a strawman.&nbsp; It's the basis of your entire argument that casters are superior.&nbsp; The only way that argument works is if casters have access to all spells, all the time.&nbsp; Because if they don't, then you've opened the door to all these other scenarios where they aren't superior.Those were just example spells for illustration.&nbsp; You're so focused on the DPR that you aren't seeing the forest through the trees.&nbsp; Guess what?&nbsp; You don't have any level 2 slots left.&nbsp; Do you know what that means?&nbsp; That means the caster isn't as good as the fighter in that scenario.&nbsp; That means your entire argument falls apart.&nbsp; If you had said, &quot;In some very specific scenarios with specific builds with everything else aligning in the caster's favor, they are more powerful than the other classes&quot; then I'd agree with you.&nbsp; But you're not arguing that.&nbsp; You're talking in generalities.sigh...level 1, level 10, level 20, doesn't matter.&nbsp; That's not the point.&nbsp; The point is that it is entirely possible for a caster to find themselves in a scenario where they either:a. never learned the right spellb. never prepped the right spellc. don't have the slots available any more to cast the spellAny of those three directly refute your argument.This is possibly one of the most ironic things I've heard.&nbsp; If you consider that good faith, then I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse.&nbsp; You keep saying &quot;goal post shifting&quot; but I haven't shifted the goal posts once.&nbsp; I've been consistent the entire time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 6362560, member: 15700"] Again, you're missing the point. the caster doesn't have access to the spells during actual game play. No matter how many short or long rests your caster takes, if he or she hasn't learned the knock spell, they don't have access to it during actual play. Ergo, they are not as good at, nor can they replace the rogue when opening locks. Ergo, your claim is objectively false. And that's not even factoring the other mitigating factors (like not having it prepared even if they had learned it, or like not enough spell slots available even if they had prepped it, etc). That's not a strawman. It's the basis of your entire argument that casters are superior. The [I]only [/I]way that argument works is if casters have access to all spells, all the time. Because if they don't, then you've opened the door to all these other scenarios where they aren't superior. Those were just example spells for illustration. You're so focused on the DPR that you aren't seeing the forest through the trees. Guess what? You don't have any level 2 slots left. Do you know what that means? That means the caster isn't as good as the fighter in that scenario. That means your entire argument falls apart. If you had said, "In some very specific scenarios with specific builds with everything else aligning in the caster's favor, they are more powerful than the other classes" then I'd agree with you. But you're not arguing that. You're talking in generalities. sigh...level 1, level 10, level 20, doesn't matter. That's not the point. The point is that it is entirely possible for a caster to find themselves in a scenario where they either: a. never learned the right spell b. never prepped the right spell c. don't have the slots available any more to cast the spell Any of those three directly refute your argument. This is possibly one of the most ironic things I've heard. If you consider that good faith, then I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse. You keep saying "goal post shifting" but I haven't shifted the goal posts once. I've been consistent the entire time. [/QUOTE]

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