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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Andor" data-source="post: 6362850" data-attributes="member: 1879">Nonsense. A Fighter, even the Champion you are fixated on, has access via a single feat to spells like Detect Magic and Water Breathing. While there are not quite as many ritual spells in 5e as I would like, the list does include some very good utility spells like Water Walking/Breathing, Detect Magic, Identify, Speak With Animals, or Leomunds Tiny Hut. If we are discussing out of combat utility the fact that they are rituals rather than instant cast spells is meaningless.Look, to be clear, you are not wrong, and Sacrosancts position is absurd. (With apologies, but it is.) However there are other points which you yourself are steadfastly ignoring to the detriment of your credibility.First, there are no non-caster classes in 5e. Not one. There are only some non-caster subclasses for those who do not wish to use the spell system. Yes, it's true that people without spells do not have spells. So what? They don't have them because, and only because, they didn't want them. That is not a system flaw, it is providing options to players. And yes, "I don't want that." is a valid option. Do you really think that having chosen Champion in the first place and after bypassing 19 opportunities to multi-class the player of the 20th level Fighter will be crying into his beer about how the Wizard emasculated him?Secondly, many of your examples do not in fact invalidate the classes you claim they invalidate. If the Bards Song of Rest is contributing to the party it adds exactly as many HP to the Fighters pool as the Bards. Yes it's more healing overall, but so what? The fighter was never in that race to begin with. If Faerie fire does more in a single spell than the fighter does all combat, so what? It's using the fighter to do it (in part) and thereby stealing no ones thunder. In all seriousness when have you ever heard a front line character complain that he felt obsoleted by the bonuses provided by a support class? The experience of play is important. White room analysis of DPR is not. If a fighter feels useless in play, that is a problem. It's not neccessarily the classes problem however, it will be a result of interaction between the DM and the Figher and Wizards players that leads to that feeling. And if it makes the fighters player unhappy he can retire his Champion and bring in an Eldritch Knight, or a Druid or a Monk. In a white room the Champion is not the equal of the Wizard, but at the table where things are messy with cheeto dust and coffee stains, they can be equal amounts of fun to play and that's what matters.</blockquote>

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