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<blockquote data-quote="Capricia" data-source="post: 6363088" data-attributes="member: 6777135">Really? You should look at a few non-d20 systems.&nbsp; Oneshotting someone with a stool is super easy in Fate Core, for example, with the math still being balanced. As for Boromir defeating dozens of orcs...that was possible in 3e and 4e, but with bounded accuracy, even a dozen orcs can be incredibly deadly for a fighter.&nbsp; A high level champion would go out like a chump in such a situation.&nbsp; A high level wizard would cast meteorswarm or forcecage or teleport or...well, you get the point.Powerful.&nbsp; The kind of fighter that can, as you say, be worth dozens of lesser men in combat.&nbsp; Two dozen guys with simple weapons could easily overwhelm a fighter.&nbsp; The kind who can chop a warhorse in a single blow.&nbsp; A highlevel fighter does 2d6+5 damage on a hit, averaged at 12.&nbsp; A warhorse has 19 hp.&nbsp; The kind of fighter who can jump off a building without even slowing down.&nbsp; Any fall of 10 feet or greater inflicts damage and knocks you prone.&nbsp; In every single one of your examples, you name something that a wizard can do (fireball, sorching ray, featherfall) but a fighter can't.&nbsp; That's...that's kind of impressive, in a weird way.As for being on par with Captain America...which Cap are we talking about? The 616 Captain America who can outfight Hulk, Spider-man, and just about everyone else? The Ultimate Captain America who uses 60-ton tanks as bludgeoning weapons? The cinematic Captain America who can take down a science fiction warplane in a single round?&nbsp; Yeah, I wouldn't mind playing any of those guys.Flying a plane /= casting a spellSeriously.&nbsp; This forced analogy that magic is equal to technology is ridiculous.&nbsp; It's an analogy whose premise is challenged immediately, and if all parties can't agree on that, it really doesn't have any weight in an argument.Yes, yes, if you give the fighter magic items, he can almost do things like a wizard.&nbsp; This is silly.There is a fundamental difference between calling something supernatural and mythical and it actually being supernatural and mythical.&nbsp; Yes, monks have mystical flavor, but they're weaker in combat than a fighter and their &quot;supernatural&quot; abilities are either inferior spellcasting of the least useful abilities or minor, super specific benefits like &quot;you don't age, but you still die of old age&quot; while a wizard has, again, hundreds of spells and can even become immortal through reincarnation.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Capricia, post: 6363088, member: 6777135"] Really? You should look at a few non-d20 systems. Oneshotting someone with a stool is super easy in Fate Core, for example, with the math still being balanced. As for Boromir defeating dozens of orcs...that was possible in 3e and 4e, but with bounded accuracy, even a dozen orcs can be incredibly deadly for a fighter. A high level champion would go out like a chump in such a situation. A high level wizard would cast meteorswarm or forcecage or teleport or...well, you get the point. Powerful. The kind of fighter that can, as you say, be worth dozens of lesser men in combat. Two dozen guys with simple weapons could easily overwhelm a fighter. The kind who can chop a warhorse in a single blow. A highlevel fighter does 2d6+5 damage on a hit, averaged at 12. A warhorse has 19 hp. The kind of fighter who can jump off a building without even slowing down. Any fall of 10 feet or greater inflicts damage and knocks you prone. In every single one of your examples, you name something that a wizard can do (fireball, sorching ray, featherfall) but a fighter can't. That's...that's kind of impressive, in a weird way. As for being on par with Captain America...which Cap are we talking about? The 616 Captain America who can outfight Hulk, Spider-man, and just about everyone else? The Ultimate Captain America who uses 60-ton tanks as bludgeoning weapons? The cinematic Captain America who can take down a science fiction warplane in a single round? Yeah, I wouldn't mind playing any of those guys. Flying a plane /= casting a spell Seriously. This forced analogy that magic is equal to technology is ridiculous. It's an analogy whose premise is challenged immediately, and if all parties can't agree on that, it really doesn't have any weight in an argument. Yes, yes, if you give the fighter magic items, he can almost do things like a wizard. This is silly. There is a fundamental difference between calling something supernatural and mythical and it actually being supernatural and mythical. Yes, monks have mystical flavor, but they're weaker in combat than a fighter and their "supernatural" abilities are either inferior spellcasting of the least useful abilities or minor, super specific benefits like "you don't age, but you still die of old age" while a wizard has, again, hundreds of spells and can even become immortal through reincarnation. [/QUOTE]

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