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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ZombieRoboNinja" data-source="post: 6364664" data-attributes="member: 54843">Obviously we're not all going to agree whether a level 20 martial character should be Beowulf or Odysseus or Robin Hood. That's a matter if preference. But I think we certainly CAN agree that a level 20 fighter should be exceptional when he's in his element on the battlefield. That, I would argue, is far from impossible even with a totally "mundane" fighter. Double the champion's damage, and I don't think you'll hear another word about how 5e is a "caster edition," despite the fact that the wizard will still have all his tricks for bypassing hp. So the question that this thread first raised is whether a fighter is outclassed on the battlefield, and that is a point we can actually come to conclusions on through math and analysis.To that end: I've been think about magic items. It's hard because we don't have the DMG, but extrapolating from 3e and the playtests, and official 5e adventures  we've seen, it seems fair to say that the most common and iconic magic items for casters add to the quantity of his powers (e.g. scrolls, wands, rods, pearls of power), whereas the most common and iconic items for martial characters tend to add to the effectiveness of his existing attacks and abilities (+x weapons and armor, cloak of elvenkind) or else add new powers, often unlimited in use (boots of flying). This means that in combat, the fighter will get more power every round, while the wizard will get more longevity. And since a big part of the reason wizards are overpowered in combat is because they are able to "nova," and because some DMs don't force them to fight enough encounters to end up spamming cantrips, that added longevity probably won't be nearly as visible in combat as the fighter's added power."No fair, magic items aren't supposed to be included in the core math!" you say. They're not, but that mostly means that you don't have to change around numbers too much when you add magic items (for example, because bonuses are capped at +3 instead of 5 or 6), and that CRs wouldn't assume you were loaded to the gills with magic. (Good luck even hitting the AC of an elderdragon in 3e without magic items.) If you interpreted that to mean that powerful magic items wouldn't exist in this edition, you haven't been paying close attention.</blockquote>

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