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<blockquote data-quote="Uskglass" data-source="post: 6364957" data-attributes="member: 6777895">Actually I was making an effort to meet you on common ground. What I mean is that if you want to justify all that is supernatural in the game world as magic, to make sense of it, that's ok (I wouldn't, but it won't be a problem). The magic/non-magic point is a red herring here, and I'm trying to go past it for the sake of keeping a constructive debate that leads somewhere (which I think it is, btw, so thanks for contributing your point of view).My point is that spells mechanics are not suitable for modelling and representing a martial archetype from myths and legends. Something else need to be figured out and provided by the system for that. For instance the Battle Master could be a viable mechanical base, but the outcome of its maneuvers would need to be way more extreme at high level.&nbsp; Talking about the Champion, as an idea it could be all about dice rolling, with little or no tactical decision involved. It's about extending the crit-fisher paradigm it's already using: there could be extra effects triggered on a high roll, others on a matched roll on advantage/disadvantage, its damage dice may explode when they roll max... you name it. This would require no additional overhead for the player and could potentially give the subclass variety and spark. We are doing high fantasy here, I want fireworks! I think it is possible to achieve both goals. If it is not, then let's leave the Champion as is (at least fixing OA, please), but let's also have some proper alternatives through sub-classes. The Battle Master at the moment needs to spend 1 superiority die to push an enemy 15 feet on a hit and failed saving throw (!): at high level it should be able to hurl someone his size 15 meters away or so with a stunt like that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Uskglass, post: 6364957, member: 6777895"] Actually I was making an effort to meet you on common ground. What I mean is that if you want to justify all that is supernatural in the game world as magic, to make sense of it, that's ok (I wouldn't, but it won't be a problem). The magic/non-magic point is a red herring here, and I'm trying to go past it for the sake of keeping a constructive debate that leads somewhere (which I think it is, btw, so thanks for contributing your point of view). My point is that spells mechanics are not suitable for modelling and representing a martial archetype from myths and legends. Something else need to be figured out and provided by the system for that. For instance the Battle Master could be a viable mechanical base, but the outcome of its maneuvers would need to be way more extreme at high level. Talking about the Champion, as an idea it could be all about dice rolling, with little or no tactical decision involved. It's about extending the crit-fisher paradigm it's already using: there could be extra effects triggered on a high roll, others on a matched roll on advantage/disadvantage, its damage dice may explode when they roll max... you name it. This would require no additional overhead for the player and could potentially give the subclass variety and spark. We are doing high fantasy here, I want fireworks! I think it is possible to achieve both goals. If it is not, then let's leave the Champion as is (at least fixing OA, please), but let's also have some proper alternatives through sub-classes. The Battle Master at the moment needs to spend 1 superiority die to push an enemy 15 feet on a hit and failed saving throw (!): at high level it should be able to hurl someone his size 15 meters away or so with a stunt like that. [/QUOTE]

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