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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 7651431" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>When you imagine a fighter, do you imagine something in heavy armor, with a thick shield?</p><p></p><p>When you imagine a rogue, do you imagine a lightly-clad individual with a blade?</p><p></p><p>Is a wizard, to your mind, a creature of robes with a gnarled staff?</p><p></p><p>Is your cleric a person with thick armor and a thicker mace?</p><p></p><p>How closely is class associated with equipment for you? Certainly, these associations are fairly iconic. But are they exclusive? Can your wizard wield a sword? Can your cleric wield a spear? Can your fighter wear light armor? Can your rogue use a greatsword? What about a rogue in heavy armor, a fighter with a gnarled staff, a cleric with two daggers, and a wizard with a greataxe? How flexible is this archetype for you?</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><img src="http://i53.tinypic.com/20hqcuo.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-size: 9px">This guy is a rogue!</span></p><p></p><p>In much of the conversation about what should and should not be part of which class for the newest edition a common recurring theme is the idea that equipment is a defining trait of a given character class. A lightly armored warrior, the logic goes, CAN’T be a member of the fighter class, because the fighter class is defined by the heavy armor. </p><p></p><p>However, what equipment your character dons is clearly an area open to some customization. What you wear and use isn’t an essential part of your class, but a mechanical and aesthetic choice that your class abilities are then layered on top of. Weapon and armor proficiencies are given by classes, but this needn’t be the case.</p><p></p><p>What happens when we take equipment assumptions entirely out of a class?</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><u>Equipment Proficiency Packages</u></strong></span></p><p>Let us posit some version of a D&D-esque game where we called this out explicitly: Your class doesn’t give you weapon and armor and implement proficiencies. Rather, as part of character creation, you choose an equipment proficiency package. This package defines your overall approach to attack and defense with regards to your basic equipment. Within this package, you pick one of the options, and gain proficiency with those specific equipment pieces. </p><p></p><p><strong><em>Well-Rounded Package</em></strong></p><p><strong>{AC 14, 1d8 melee damage, 1d6 ranged damage}</strong></p><p>You know how to protect yourself, and you know how to deal some damage. You don’t prioritize one or the other. </p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Power Option</em>: Chainmail, light shield, longsword, shortbow</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Agility Option</em>: Leather Armor, Great Agility, twin daggers, shortbow</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Mage Option</em>: Mage Armor ritual, Rod of Shocking Grasp, Wand of Magic Missile</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Gish Option</em>: Leather armor, shield ritual, longsword, Wand of Magic Missile</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Defensive Package</em></strong></p><p><strong>{AC 16, 1d6 melee damage, 1d4 ranged damage}</strong></p><p>You focus on defense, more interested in keeping yourself intact than in assaulting your foes. </p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Power Option</em>: Platemail, heavy shield, pick, sling</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Agility Option</em>: Chainmail, Great Agility, light shield, shortsword, sling </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Mage Option</em>: Mage Armor ritual, shield ritual, Skull of Chill Touch, Wand of Acid Splash</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Gish Option</em>: Platemail, shield ritual, shortsword, Wand of Acid Splash</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Ranged Specialist Package</em></strong></p><p><strong>{AC 12, 1d6 melee damage, 1d10 ranged damage}</strong></p><p>You try to strike down your foes before they get a chance to close with you, so they never get a chance to hit you in melee. </p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Power Option</em>: Leather armor, shortsword, crossbow</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Agility Option</em>: Great Agility, shortsword, crossbow</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Mage Option</em>: Shield ritual, Skull of Chill Touch, Wand of Enfeeblement</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Gish Option</em>: Leather armor, shortsword, Wand of Enfeeblement</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Melee Specialist Package</em></strong></p><p><strong>{AC 13, 1d12 melee damage, 1d4 ranged damage}</strong></p><p>You specialize in overwhelming attacks, executing your enemies before they get much of a chance to hit you back. </p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Power Option</em>: Chainmail, greatsword, sling</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Agility Option</em>: Leather armor, High Agility, Twin Short Swords, sling</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Mage Option</em>: High Agility, Shield ritual, Orb of Burning Hands, sling</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Gish Option</em>: Chainmail, greatsword, Wand of Acid Splash</p><p></p><p><strong><em>Options A La Carte</em></strong></p><p> <u>Melee Weapons</u></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Dagger/Mace/Punching dagger (1d4)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Shortsword/Staff/Pick (1d6)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Longsword/Warhammer/Spear (1d8); Twin Daggers (1d4 each)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Bastard sword/Heavy flail/Halberd (1d10)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Greatsword/Maul/Lance (1d12); Twin Blades (1d6 each)</li> </ol><p></p><p><u>Thrown/Ranged Weapons</u></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Sling (1d4)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Shortbow (1d6)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Longbow (1d8)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Crossbow (1d10)</li> </ol><p></p><p><u>Armor, Agility, and Shields</u></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Light Shield (+1 AC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> High Agility (+1 AC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Heavy Shield (+2 AC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Great Agility (+2 AC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Leather Armor (+2 AC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Chainmail (+3 AC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Plate mail (+4 AC)</li> </ol><p></p><p><u>Magic</u></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Mage Armor Ritual: +4 AC</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Shield Ritual: +2 AC</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Wand of Magic Missile: 1d4 ranged force damage; no roll to hit (equal to a shortbow)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Wand of Acid Splash: 1d4 ranged acid damage (equal to a sling)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Wand of Enfeeblement: 1d8 ranged necrotic damage; imposes disadvantage on targets’ melee attacks for 1 round (equal to a crossbow).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Orb of Burning Hands: 1d4 fire damage to all enemies in a small cone. (equal to a greatsword). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Rod of Shocking Grasp: 1d6 melee electric damage; advantage vs. metal-clad opponents (equal to a longsword)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> Skull of Chill Touch: 1d4 melee necrotic damage; imposes disadvantage on targets’ melee attacks for 1 round (equal to a shortsword)</li> </ol><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><u>Designing the Packages</u></strong></span></p><p>The essential idea of the packages is based on a five-point scale. That is, a “middle ground” option, with two possible degrees of removal on either side. This gives us a scale from worst to bad to middle to better to best. </p><p></p><p>The five-point scale meshes well with the d4 to d12 scale, and so is a good fit for weapon damage, which generally occupies the same range. It can also mesh with the different types of armors and shields found in a D&D-esque game (three categories of armor + two categories of shield). </p><p></p><p>The magical effects were derived to be what 5e might call a cantrip – an at-will spell that can be used without limit. The magic items were designed to be swingier than the typical weapon, to encourage more strategic use. An orb of burning hands might equal a greatsword, but getting that 1d4-to-multiple-creatures to equal a possible 1d12 might require some tactical genius, and it’s possible to pump up the figures in the right circumstance (if you can catch 3 creatures, you’ll be on par, less and you’ll be less, more and you’ll do better).The trade-off is between consistently big damage on the one hand, and potentially-bigger-but-potentially-smaller damage on the other. </p><p></p><p>To help distinguish the Agility Option, there are two unique elements. The High Agility and Great Agility features effectively act as dodge bonuses to AC, much like a high DEX score. Regardless of whether or not you allow a character’s Dexterity to modify AC, within the scope of the equipment, the Agility options remain comparable to the armored options, especially when employing a shield. The Twin weapons (Twin Daggers and Twin Blades) allow a character with that proficiency to attack twice, dealing less damage with each hit. This trades some consistency in damage (2d6 vs. 1d12) for some swing in accuracy.</p><p></p><p>These numbers were derived without reference to the broader mechanics of any given edition so, depending on your edition of preference, using these rules might require some numbers-massaging. But if you can fit the continuum of attack power and defense power on a five-point scale in your edition of choice, you can likely adopt this.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><u>Class Ability Interactions</u></strong></span></p><p>With this kind of model, you can still have some classes be “better” at combat than others by enabling an effective bump on the five-point scale. Perhaps fighters get to use a melee weapon or armor 1 category higher than normal, for instance.</p><p></p><p>It’s also possible to scale this in complexity.</p><p></p><p> In the simplest mode, the class “bakes in” the equipment package choice. Perhaps in basic mode, the fighter automatically gives you the Defensive Package with the Power Option, and the wizard automatically gives you the Ranged Specialist Package with the Mage option. </p><p></p><p>Conversely, at its most complex, you can have characters selecting proficiencies a la carte – as long as they are balanced between melee, ranged, and defense (while still having some rating in each), then they should be roughly the equal of any other character. </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><u>Customization and Modification</u></strong></span></p><p>With this framework, it’s obvious how you might add different equipment: put it at a point on the five-point-scale. Gear that has special qualities (like a spiked chain good at tripping your enemies) might occupy a space one rung lower than the same gear without special qualities, much like how magic is weighted. A naked d8 is good, but a d6 that can be bumped to a d10 might be just as good, as long as the bump happens about half the time. These weights are necessarily a bit screwy and subject to judgment calls, but they also add interesting variety lacking from a pure-die system. </p><p></p><p>In addition to simply adding weapons and gear and magic, there is a possibility to add new options and new packages for the archetypal kinds of equipment worn for your games. Imagine adding an option for “curved implements” or “blunt instruments” (for druids and old-school clerics), or options for different kinds of spellcasters.</p><p></p><p>You could also envision a package dictating HP and attack bonuses, too, especially since HP already exists on the five-point scale, and a flat attack bonus might also work on a five-point scale. </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><u>Class Independent From Gear</u></strong></span></p><p>Ultimately, the goal of this little thought exercise is to envision a way to disentangle gear assumptions from class assumptions, to see a class as less a package of armor and weapons and more a package of specific abilities. It is not heavy armor that defines these fighters, it is some other quality (such as their increased melee damage and armor!). Gear and class have been closely tied in D&D before, but it clearly doesn’t need to be the case: any fighter should be able to take a magical ritual instead of plate mail, or two blades instead of a greatsword. What defines a class shouldn’t be what they wear or what they hit with, but what they <em>do</em>. </p><p></p><p>So, with class independent from gear, what do you think should be a class unique unto itself?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 7651431, member: 2067"] When you imagine a fighter, do you imagine something in heavy armor, with a thick shield? When you imagine a rogue, do you imagine a lightly-clad individual with a blade? Is a wizard, to your mind, a creature of robes with a gnarled staff? Is your cleric a person with thick armor and a thicker mace? How closely is class associated with equipment for you? Certainly, these associations are fairly iconic. But are they exclusive? Can your wizard wield a sword? Can your cleric wield a spear? Can your fighter wear light armor? Can your rogue use a greatsword? What about a rogue in heavy armor, a fighter with a gnarled staff, a cleric with two daggers, and a wizard with a greataxe? How flexible is this archetype for you? [CENTER][IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/20hqcuo.jpg[/IMG] [SIZE=1]This guy is a rogue![/SIZE][/CENTER] In much of the conversation about what should and should not be part of which class for the newest edition a common recurring theme is the idea that equipment is a defining trait of a given character class. A lightly armored warrior, the logic goes, CAN’T be a member of the fighter class, because the fighter class is defined by the heavy armor. However, what equipment your character dons is clearly an area open to some customization. What you wear and use isn’t an essential part of your class, but a mechanical and aesthetic choice that your class abilities are then layered on top of. Weapon and armor proficiencies are given by classes, but this needn’t be the case. What happens when we take equipment assumptions entirely out of a class? [SIZE=3][B][U]Equipment Proficiency Packages[/U][/B][/SIZE][B][U][/u][/B][U][/U] Let us posit some version of a D&D-esque game where we called this out explicitly: Your class doesn’t give you weapon and armor and implement proficiencies. Rather, as part of character creation, you choose an equipment proficiency package. This package defines your overall approach to attack and defense with regards to your basic equipment. Within this package, you pick one of the options, and gain proficiency with those specific equipment pieces. [B][I]Well-Rounded Package[/I][/B][I][/I] [B]{AC 14, 1d8 melee damage, 1d6 ranged damage}[/B] You know how to protect yourself, and you know how to deal some damage. You don’t prioritize one or the other. [INDENT][I]Power Option[/I]: Chainmail, light shield, longsword, shortbow[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Agility Option[/I]: Leather Armor, Great Agility, twin daggers, shortbow[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Mage Option[/I]: Mage Armor ritual, Rod of Shocking Grasp, Wand of Magic Missile[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Gish Option[/I]: Leather armor, shield ritual, longsword, Wand of Magic Missile[/INDENT] [B][I]Defensive Package[/I][/B][I][/I] [B]{AC 16, 1d6 melee damage, 1d4 ranged damage}[/B] You focus on defense, more interested in keeping yourself intact than in assaulting your foes. [INDENT][I]Power Option[/I]: Platemail, heavy shield, pick, sling[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Agility Option[/I]: Chainmail, Great Agility, light shield, shortsword, sling [/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Mage Option[/I]: Mage Armor ritual, shield ritual, Skull of Chill Touch, Wand of Acid Splash[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Gish Option[/I]: Platemail, shield ritual, shortsword, Wand of Acid Splash[/INDENT] [B][I]Ranged Specialist Package[/I][/B][I][/I] [B]{AC 12, 1d6 melee damage, 1d10 ranged damage}[/B] You try to strike down your foes before they get a chance to close with you, so they never get a chance to hit you in melee. [INDENT][I]Power Option[/I]: Leather armor, shortsword, crossbow[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Agility Option[/I]: Great Agility, shortsword, crossbow[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Mage Option[/I]: Shield ritual, Skull of Chill Touch, Wand of Enfeeblement[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Gish Option[/I]: Leather armor, shortsword, Wand of Enfeeblement[/INDENT] [B][I]Melee Specialist Package[/I][/B][I][/I] [B]{AC 13, 1d12 melee damage, 1d4 ranged damage}[/B] You specialize in overwhelming attacks, executing your enemies before they get much of a chance to hit you back. [INDENT][I]Power Option[/I]: Chainmail, greatsword, sling[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Agility Option[/I]: Leather armor, High Agility, Twin Short Swords, sling[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Mage Option[/I]: High Agility, Shield ritual, Orb of Burning Hands, sling[/INDENT] [INDENT][I]Gish Option[/I]: Chainmail, greatsword, Wand of Acid Splash[/INDENT] [B][I]Options A La Carte[/I][/B][I][/I] [U]Melee Weapons[/U] [LIST=1] [*] Dagger/Mace/Punching dagger (1d4) [*] Shortsword/Staff/Pick (1d6) [*] Longsword/Warhammer/Spear (1d8); Twin Daggers (1d4 each) [*]Bastard sword/Heavy flail/Halberd (1d10) [*]Greatsword/Maul/Lance (1d12); Twin Blades (1d6 each) [/LIST] [U]Thrown/Ranged Weapons[/U] [LIST=1] [*] Sling (1d4) [*] Shortbow (1d6) [*] Longbow (1d8) [*] Crossbow (1d10) [/LIST] [U]Armor, Agility, and Shields[/U] [LIST=1] [*] Light Shield (+1 AC) [*] High Agility (+1 AC) [*] Heavy Shield (+2 AC) [*] Great Agility (+2 AC) [*] Leather Armor (+2 AC) [*] Chainmail (+3 AC) [*] Plate mail (+4 AC) [/LIST] [U]Magic[/U] [LIST=1] [*] Mage Armor Ritual: +4 AC [*] Shield Ritual: +2 AC [*] Wand of Magic Missile: 1d4 ranged force damage; no roll to hit (equal to a shortbow) [*] Wand of Acid Splash: 1d4 ranged acid damage (equal to a sling) [*] Wand of Enfeeblement: 1d8 ranged necrotic damage; imposes disadvantage on targets’ melee attacks for 1 round (equal to a crossbow). [*] Orb of Burning Hands: 1d4 fire damage to all enemies in a small cone. (equal to a greatsword). [*] Rod of Shocking Grasp: 1d6 melee electric damage; advantage vs. metal-clad opponents (equal to a longsword) [*] Skull of Chill Touch: 1d4 melee necrotic damage; imposes disadvantage on targets’ melee attacks for 1 round (equal to a shortsword) [/LIST] [SIZE=3][B][U]Designing the Packages[/U][/B][/SIZE][B][U][/u][/B][U][/U] The essential idea of the packages is based on a five-point scale. That is, a “middle ground” option, with two possible degrees of removal on either side. This gives us a scale from worst to bad to middle to better to best. The five-point scale meshes well with the d4 to d12 scale, and so is a good fit for weapon damage, which generally occupies the same range. It can also mesh with the different types of armors and shields found in a D&D-esque game (three categories of armor + two categories of shield). The magical effects were derived to be what 5e might call a cantrip – an at-will spell that can be used without limit. The magic items were designed to be swingier than the typical weapon, to encourage more strategic use. An orb of burning hands might equal a greatsword, but getting that 1d4-to-multiple-creatures to equal a possible 1d12 might require some tactical genius, and it’s possible to pump up the figures in the right circumstance (if you can catch 3 creatures, you’ll be on par, less and you’ll be less, more and you’ll do better).The trade-off is between consistently big damage on the one hand, and potentially-bigger-but-potentially-smaller damage on the other. To help distinguish the Agility Option, there are two unique elements. The High Agility and Great Agility features effectively act as dodge bonuses to AC, much like a high DEX score. Regardless of whether or not you allow a character’s Dexterity to modify AC, within the scope of the equipment, the Agility options remain comparable to the armored options, especially when employing a shield. The Twin weapons (Twin Daggers and Twin Blades) allow a character with that proficiency to attack twice, dealing less damage with each hit. This trades some consistency in damage (2d6 vs. 1d12) for some swing in accuracy. These numbers were derived without reference to the broader mechanics of any given edition so, depending on your edition of preference, using these rules might require some numbers-massaging. But if you can fit the continuum of attack power and defense power on a five-point scale in your edition of choice, you can likely adopt this. [SIZE=3][B][U]Class Ability Interactions[/U][/B][/SIZE][B][U][/u][/B][U][/U] With this kind of model, you can still have some classes be “better” at combat than others by enabling an effective bump on the five-point scale. Perhaps fighters get to use a melee weapon or armor 1 category higher than normal, for instance. It’s also possible to scale this in complexity. In the simplest mode, the class “bakes in” the equipment package choice. Perhaps in basic mode, the fighter automatically gives you the Defensive Package with the Power Option, and the wizard automatically gives you the Ranged Specialist Package with the Mage option. Conversely, at its most complex, you can have characters selecting proficiencies a la carte – as long as they are balanced between melee, ranged, and defense (while still having some rating in each), then they should be roughly the equal of any other character. [SIZE=3][B][U]Customization and Modification[/U][/B][/SIZE][B][U][/u][/B][U][/U] With this framework, it’s obvious how you might add different equipment: put it at a point on the five-point-scale. Gear that has special qualities (like a spiked chain good at tripping your enemies) might occupy a space one rung lower than the same gear without special qualities, much like how magic is weighted. A naked d8 is good, but a d6 that can be bumped to a d10 might be just as good, as long as the bump happens about half the time. These weights are necessarily a bit screwy and subject to judgment calls, but they also add interesting variety lacking from a pure-die system. In addition to simply adding weapons and gear and magic, there is a possibility to add new options and new packages for the archetypal kinds of equipment worn for your games. Imagine adding an option for “curved implements” or “blunt instruments” (for druids and old-school clerics), or options for different kinds of spellcasters. You could also envision a package dictating HP and attack bonuses, too, especially since HP already exists on the five-point scale, and a flat attack bonus might also work on a five-point scale. [SIZE=3][B][U]Class Independent From Gear[/U][/B][/SIZE][B][U][/u][/B][U][/U] Ultimately, the goal of this little thought exercise is to envision a way to disentangle gear assumptions from class assumptions, to see a class as less a package of armor and weapons and more a package of specific abilities. It is not heavy armor that defines these fighters, it is some other quality (such as their increased melee damage and armor!). Gear and class have been closely tied in D&D before, but it clearly doesn’t need to be the case: any fighter should be able to take a magical ritual instead of plate mail, or two blades instead of a greatsword. What defines a class shouldn’t be what they wear or what they hit with, but what they [I]do[/I]. So, with class independent from gear, what do you think should be a class unique unto itself? [/QUOTE]
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