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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MThibault" data-source="post: 585939" data-attributes="member: 7971">On the Ranger and Bard getting 6 skill points.I think that this would be well and good if they weren't concerned about backwards compatibility.  It has long been a pet peeve of mine that bards and rangers essentially pay twice for basic class abilities (once for bumping another hypothetical class ability, and again when they purchase ranks in the related skill) but even so, I've seen some very *effective* rangers and bards in my campaigns so I don't think that it is absolutely necessary.The real kicker is that it is very easy to add a discrete special ability to existing PCs and NPCs.  Adding something like Evasion at 5th level is about the easiest revision you can implement.  It is a situational effect that doesn't cause any of the other numbers on the character sheet or statblock to change, so you pencil it in and move on.  On the other hand it is very labor intensive to recalculate the skill points for 15th level NPCs based on new quantities -- that would be a huge pain, and I would constantly have to remind myself to double check NPCs skill points in d20 products to see if they are using the new or the old values.  That is lengthy and tedious work.If they can figure out another way around the problems of these classes, I would prefer they take the road less travelled.Specifically on Rangers:Like I said, I've seen more than one very effective ranger over the last few years.  I don't think that the class needs a ton of changes, and definitely *not* a boost in power.If I were in charge, I would drop the HD down to a d6 (yes d6) to discourage Rgr 1/ Other X.  Then add a bonus feats or special abilities at higher levels to compensate -- heck you could even give free Toughness feats at levels 4, 7, 10, 12, 15 and 18 to bring the average HP up to around the same as a d8.  You will definitely see fewer Ranger 1/ Barbarian X combos with the lower HD, and even lightly armored fighters will think twice of taking Ranger at character level one.  This will also provide some wiggle room for other special abilities or bonus feats without coming too close to the Fighter's general combat ability.But again, backwards compatibility rears its ugly head.Specifically on Bards:Again they are very effective at what they do.  They make the party better at almost everything.   Aside from the double-dipping on the Bardic Music costs, I have issues with the diminishing returns of their spell list.  Because they only have 6 levels of spell their Save DCs are always on the low side at higher levels.  Add to this that a bard usually needs more than two good stats to be effective so their spell casting ability score (charisma) isn't usually as high as wizards or sorcerers (or even clerics, for that matter) so the DCs take another hit.  In my experience high level bards have save DCs that are usually around 4 or 5 lower than a wizard or sorcerer of comparable level so it is pretty easy for high level opponents to make their saves against high level bard spells.But just as with skill points, adding 3 more levels of bard spells and redistributing the spells over 9 levels as appropriate would not be very backwards compatible.  Adding new spells that are cast on the bard or his allies might help some, but that undermines the bard's mind-controlling, persuasive niche and makes him more of a back-up buffing caster to the cleric.The only thing I can could think of would be to allow Bardic Music Uses to be applied to spell DCs.  Make a perform check to increase your spell's save DC.  DC25 +1, DC30 +2, DC 35 +3, DC40 +4 (or something to that effect).   This will also integrate the bardic music and the casting a bit more for flavor.Having more options for high level bardic music goes without saying, doesn't it?Cheers.</blockquote>

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