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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8084492" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>[USER=6776133]@Bawylie[/USER] mentioned it, but it depends on how you define "weaker in combat" & limiting it entirely to damage is the wrong metric. A class that uses charisma as a primary ability score is likely to dominate social encounters & should absolutely not stand even with it's nearest match using int or strength because int & strength are much less useful skills. You can say well it lets the party move a heavy obstacle or learn important details... but if the party failed at those things because nobody had the needed attrib/skill the GM would need to get the info/detour to the party somehow. Taking that a step further are a few good quotes from a <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/treantmonks-guide-to-wizards-being-a-god-in-d-d-3-5-treantmonklvl20-cantripn-tsuyoshi-dan2.471542/" target="_blank">great 3.5 wizard guide</a></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, <strong>or a Blaster (the <u><em>inferior</em></u> wizard)</strong>. "</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">battlefield control "In order to be an effective battlefield controller - you should consider your primary goal to line up your enemies flanked by your Glass Cannon and Big Stupid Fighter one at a time and backwards, all while standing on their heads. This will make <strong>the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. </strong>"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">debuffing "In order to be an effective Debuffer - you should consider your primary goal to have your BBEG standing in front of your GC and BSF dazed, stunned, nauseated, STR = 1, Dex = 1, Level = 1, and Blind for good measure. This will make <strong>the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and <u>they will feel like "they" won. That's the point</u> - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. </strong>"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">buffing "</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In order to be effective at buffing - <strong>you turn <u>your</u> Big Stupid Fighter into a Colossal, Stupid Fighter on crack, and <u>your</u> Glass Cannon into an Adamantium Chain Gun.</strong> This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - <strong>and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.</strong><br /> <br /> Which is better? It depends. They all rock - but Debuffing tends to be better against a single BBEG, while Battlefield Control tends to work better against multiple foes with my experience. Buffing is more of a tertiary role for GOD.<br /> Which should you concentrate on? Depends on your stats - which is what we'll get into next. "</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test" target="_blank">Here's the PF version</a></li> </ul><p></p><p>In both systems I've seen that type of wizard literally forget to attack with a sling/crossbow/etc or say things like "no sense wasting time for the miss bob's up next." It's ok to be "weaker in combat" if you massively excel in some area & are still pretty good or you absolutely <em>dominate</em> some aspect of combat that doesn't show up in a DPR graph. While you will find plenty of 5e guides on how to win the DPR race with various classes, you really won't find any for that sort of battlefield control/buff/debuff role because it doesn't work in any meaningful fashion in 5e <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /></p><p>edit:typo</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8084492, member: 93670"] [USER=6776133]@Bawylie[/USER] mentioned it, but it depends on how you define "weaker in combat" & limiting it entirely to damage is the wrong metric. A class that uses charisma as a primary ability score is likely to dominate social encounters & should absolutely not stand even with it's nearest match using int or strength because int & strength are much less useful skills. You can say well it lets the party move a heavy obstacle or learn important details... but if the party failed at those things because nobody had the needed attrib/skill the GM would need to get the info/detour to the party somehow. Taking that a step further are a few good quotes from a [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/treantmonks-guide-to-wizards-being-a-god-in-d-d-3-5-treantmonklvl20-cantripn-tsuyoshi-dan2.471542/']great 3.5 wizard guide[/URL] [LIST] [*]"This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, [B]or a Blaster (the [U][I]inferior[/I][/U] wizard)[/B]. " [*]battlefield control "In order to be an effective battlefield controller - you should consider your primary goal to line up your enemies flanked by your Glass Cannon and Big Stupid Fighter one at a time and backwards, all while standing on their heads. This will make [B]the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. [/B]" [*]debuffing "In order to be an effective Debuffer - you should consider your primary goal to have your BBEG standing in front of your GC and BSF dazed, stunned, nauseated, STR = 1, Dex = 1, Level = 1, and Blind for good measure. This will make [B]the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and [U]they will feel like "they" won. That's the point[/U] - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. [/B]" [*]buffing " [*]In order to be effective at buffing - [B]you turn [U]your[/U] Big Stupid Fighter into a Colossal, Stupid Fighter on crack, and [U]your[/U] Glass Cannon into an Adamantium Chain Gun.[/B] This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - [B]and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.[/B] Which is better? It depends. They all rock - but Debuffing tends to be better against a single BBEG, while Battlefield Control tends to work better against multiple foes with my experience. Buffing is more of a tertiary role for GOD. Which should you concentrate on? Depends on your stats - which is what we'll get into next. " [*][URL='https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test']Here's the PF version[/URL] [/LIST] In both systems I've seen that type of wizard literally forget to attack with a sling/crossbow/etc or say things like "no sense wasting time for the miss bob's up next." It's ok to be "weaker in combat" if you massively excel in some area & are still pretty good or you absolutely [I]dominate[/I] some aspect of combat that doesn't show up in a DPR graph. While you will find plenty of 5e guides on how to win the DPR race with various classes, you really won't find any for that sort of battlefield control/buff/debuff role because it doesn't work in any meaningful fashion in 5e :( edit:typo [/QUOTE]
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Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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