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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8113518" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>elemetal weapon is forge cleric, paladin, & hexblade. All of those are classes & archetypes that are far from what would traditionally be called a caster given their weapon & armor proficiencies while being largely unaffected by the over abundance of energy resistant creatures wile posessing significant options for handling magic resistant creatures. Also the cleric's nova damage would be massively reduced by exchanging the concertation spell used there (spirit guardians) for elemental weapon. Yes artificer gets it at level nine when they get third level spells, but it's a concentration spell that grants a mere +1 & +1d4 and as a half caster are significantly hindered by the situation noted. That +1 at level nine is almost certain to go away entirely simply by virtue of casting it on a weapon with +1 or better already on it & +1d4 damage to one weapon of one party member needing concentration is an absurd demand. </p><p></p><p>Your comments about enlarge make me feel the need to question if you realize we are talking about 5e? The only effect of a successful grapple is making speed become zero. Even if that is useful it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". The only time enlarge would even come into play is if a size small pc wants to grapple a size large creature or a size medium a size huge... which again has nothing to do with magnifying the damage of the weapon user... It's also concentration to ensure it conflicts with most of the spells on your list</p><p>[ATTACH=full]127858[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Holy weapon is available to cleric & paladin not wizard sorcerer artificer.</p><p></p><p>Flame arrow is available to all of those but again it's a third level slot for +1d6 to one weapon for an hour making it barely ok but hardly the level of power you are ascribing to it and it becomes subject to the <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=&filter-resistance=9" target="_blank">oh so common fire resistance</a>.</p><p></p><p>Faerie fire is a save or suck spell, while giving advantage on attacks if the target fails the save will indeed raise damage of a weapon user against high ac targets, couple the prevalence of +1/+2 weapons with the prevalence of magic resistance and the fact that this spell is short duration (1m) single target (not like spirit guardians or hex where it can move) and requires concentration to conflict with every concentration spell on your list.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ottos irresistable dance is a sixth level concentration spell that forces the target to use all movement dancing in place & grants advantage on attacks against it. as a spell, creatures with magic resistance have advantage on the save & creatures immune to charm are likewise immune This falls far short of the merit you seem to give it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Hold person/hold monster? Back in 3.5 they were amazing where it allowed a coup de grace. In 5e ithey are concentration spells subject to magic resistance granting paralyzed condition on a failed save which creatures with magic resistance have advantage against.</p><p></p><p>Dissonant whispers? Bard & GoO warlock spell, two classes minimally impacted by an overabundance of resistances to fire ice cold acid & lightning. Your making the case for a serious problem not shown by the chars in the OP more & more.</p><p></p><p>Command? At best you are burning a first level spell slot of an AoO <em>if </em>the target fails the save & don't forget all the magic resistance.</p><p></p><p>Greater invis is a 4th level spell with both concentration requirement and a one minute duration. While it will certainly fill the conditions for a rogue to sneak attack, "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it" makes concentration & the spell slot an especially dubious expenditure for the goal of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user." </p><p></p><p>Invisibility. Given the dubious value for greater invis, your decision to include this is even more questionable</p><p></p><p>Polymorph? This is not wildshape the polymorphed pc replaces their sheet with the statblock of the creature they polymorph into, they do not maintain access to their race/class abilities & equipment.. Oh yea, it's yet another concentration spell on your list.</p><p></p><p>Bless? I left off this concentration spell with a 1 minute duration because allowing 3 allies to add +1d4 to an attack roll or save needs to stretch to claim that it is a spell that will "magnify the damage of a weapon user"</p><p></p><p>Contagion? Once again nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"</p><p></p><p>Divine word? This is a seventh level spell with an effect based on the target's hitpoints. While being blinded deafened & stunned for one hour will certainly "magnify the damage of the weapon user", the fact that the spell caps out at creatures with 50 hit points and that effect is limited to creatures with hit points more than twenty but equal or less than 30.. Is a seventh level spell really necessary or the caster's party member to deal with such a creature? Did you even check what this did before listing it?</p><p></p><p>Create bonfire. This is A: a fire damage spell subject to both fire resist & magic resist. B: yet another concentration spell. & C: has absolutely nothing to do with" magnifying the damage of the weapon user." Why do you have so many spells like this that strengthen the case for a serious problem on your list of spells that would "magnify the damage of the weapon user"?</p><p></p><p>Elemental bane? a 4th level single target spell with a 1 min duration & no way to move it like spirit guardians & hex. While adding 2d6 damage of a specific element if the target fails a save to be affected by this and takes damage from that same element will certainly magnify the damage of the weapon user if they are using a weapon with an elemental component the spell is subject to elemental resistance & spell resistance that grants advantage to the save & unless you have a significant number of party members with a weapon bearing the same elemental component the cost/benefit is way out of line making this spell from EE pretty awful largely due to literally every component of the spell holding back lest it potentially be too good under some specific circumstamce other than "the entire party has a flametongue".</p><p></p><p>Insect plague? concentration damage spell with nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"</p><p></p><p>Telekinesis? Yet another concentration spell that allows you to move creatures & objects using a 5th level spell slot. While it's not a nuke it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"</p><p></p><p>Magic stone? Round about bonus action damage spell that has very little if anything to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" simply because "weapon users" rarely if ever choose to use a sling over some other weapon & 1d6+ your spellcasting modifier is not even particularly high on the ranged weapons table. "bob couldn't be bothered to carry a ranged weapon" is hardly what most would consider "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". It also has a one minute duration and purges the prior cast of stones if you cast again to ensure you don't do something useful with it like stock up <u>each</u> member of the party on a bunch of magic stones before a fight with a creature resistant to nonmagical b/p/s early on before the weapon users have magic weapons</p><p></p><p>Moon beam? A concentration nuke.. why is this on your list of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"</p><p></p><p>Wall of fire? A concentration damage field/area denial spell that has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"... why the heck is this on your list of spells that "magnify the damage of the weapon user"</p><p></p><p>You seem unaware that concentrating on one spell prevents you from concentrating on a second without breaking concentration on the first. Tiny servant is subject to resistance to nonmagical b/p/s & I covered that before you brought it up twice more.</p><p></p><p>Greater invis & the invisible condition do not do whatever you have them confused for to think it grants a 25% damage boost.</p><p></p><p>Thank you for helping to make my case.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8113518, member: 93670"] elemetal weapon is forge cleric, paladin, & hexblade. All of those are classes & archetypes that are far from what would traditionally be called a caster given their weapon & armor proficiencies while being largely unaffected by the over abundance of energy resistant creatures wile posessing significant options for handling magic resistant creatures. Also the cleric's nova damage would be massively reduced by exchanging the concertation spell used there (spirit guardians) for elemental weapon. Yes artificer gets it at level nine when they get third level spells, but it's a concentration spell that grants a mere +1 & +1d4 and as a half caster are significantly hindered by the situation noted. That +1 at level nine is almost certain to go away entirely simply by virtue of casting it on a weapon with +1 or better already on it & +1d4 damage to one weapon of one party member needing concentration is an absurd demand. Your comments about enlarge make me feel the need to question if you realize we are talking about 5e? The only effect of a successful grapple is making speed become zero. Even if that is useful it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". The only time enlarge would even come into play is if a size small pc wants to grapple a size large creature or a size medium a size huge... which again has nothing to do with magnifying the damage of the weapon user... It's also concentration to ensure it conflicts with most of the spells on your list [ATTACH type="full"]127858[/ATTACH] Holy weapon is available to cleric & paladin not wizard sorcerer artificer. Flame arrow is available to all of those but again it's a third level slot for +1d6 to one weapon for an hour making it barely ok but hardly the level of power you are ascribing to it and it becomes subject to the [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters?filter-type=0&filter-search=&filter-cr-min=&filter-cr-max=&filter-armor-class-min=&filter-armor-class-max=&filter-average-hp-min=&filter-average-hp-max=&filter-is-legendary=&filter-is-mythic=&filter-has-lair=&filter-resistance=9']oh so common fire resistance[/URL]. Faerie fire is a save or suck spell, while giving advantage on attacks if the target fails the save will indeed raise damage of a weapon user against high ac targets, couple the prevalence of +1/+2 weapons with the prevalence of magic resistance and the fact that this spell is short duration (1m) single target (not like spirit guardians or hex where it can move) and requires concentration to conflict with every concentration spell on your list. Ottos irresistable dance is a sixth level concentration spell that forces the target to use all movement dancing in place & grants advantage on attacks against it. as a spell, creatures with magic resistance have advantage on the save & creatures immune to charm are likewise immune This falls far short of the merit you seem to give it. Hold person/hold monster? Back in 3.5 they were amazing where it allowed a coup de grace. In 5e ithey are concentration spells subject to magic resistance granting paralyzed condition on a failed save which creatures with magic resistance have advantage against. Dissonant whispers? Bard & GoO warlock spell, two classes minimally impacted by an overabundance of resistances to fire ice cold acid & lightning. Your making the case for a serious problem not shown by the chars in the OP more & more. Command? At best you are burning a first level spell slot of an AoO [I]if [/I]the target fails the save & don't forget all the magic resistance. Greater invis is a 4th level spell with both concentration requirement and a one minute duration. While it will certainly fill the conditions for a rogue to sneak attack, "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it" makes concentration & the spell slot an especially dubious expenditure for the goal of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user." Invisibility. Given the dubious value for greater invis, your decision to include this is even more questionable Polymorph? This is not wildshape the polymorphed pc replaces their sheet with the statblock of the creature they polymorph into, they do not maintain access to their race/class abilities & equipment.. Oh yea, it's yet another concentration spell on your list. Bless? I left off this concentration spell with a 1 minute duration because allowing 3 allies to add +1d4 to an attack roll or save needs to stretch to claim that it is a spell that will "magnify the damage of a weapon user" Contagion? Once again nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" Divine word? This is a seventh level spell with an effect based on the target's hitpoints. While being blinded deafened & stunned for one hour will certainly "magnify the damage of the weapon user", the fact that the spell caps out at creatures with 50 hit points and that effect is limited to creatures with hit points more than twenty but equal or less than 30.. Is a seventh level spell really necessary or the caster's party member to deal with such a creature? Did you even check what this did before listing it? Create bonfire. This is A: a fire damage spell subject to both fire resist & magic resist. B: yet another concentration spell. & C: has absolutely nothing to do with" magnifying the damage of the weapon user." Why do you have so many spells like this that strengthen the case for a serious problem on your list of spells that would "magnify the damage of the weapon user"? Elemental bane? a 4th level single target spell with a 1 min duration & no way to move it like spirit guardians & hex. While adding 2d6 damage of a specific element if the target fails a save to be affected by this and takes damage from that same element will certainly magnify the damage of the weapon user if they are using a weapon with an elemental component the spell is subject to elemental resistance & spell resistance that grants advantage to the save & unless you have a significant number of party members with a weapon bearing the same elemental component the cost/benefit is way out of line making this spell from EE pretty awful largely due to literally every component of the spell holding back lest it potentially be too good under some specific circumstamce other than "the entire party has a flametongue". Insect plague? concentration damage spell with nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" Telekinesis? Yet another concentration spell that allows you to move creatures & objects using a 5th level spell slot. While it's not a nuke it has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" Magic stone? Round about bonus action damage spell that has very little if anything to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" simply because "weapon users" rarely if ever choose to use a sling over some other weapon & 1d6+ your spellcasting modifier is not even particularly high on the ranged weapons table. "bob couldn't be bothered to carry a ranged weapon" is hardly what most would consider "magnifying the damage of the weapon user". It also has a one minute duration and purges the prior cast of stones if you cast again to ensure you don't do something useful with it like stock up [U]each[/U] member of the party on a bunch of magic stones before a fight with a creature resistant to nonmagical b/p/s early on before the weapon users have magic weapons Moon beam? A concentration nuke.. why is this on your list of "magnifying the damage of the weapon user" Wall of fire? A concentration damage field/area denial spell that has nothing to do with "magnifying the damage of the weapon user"... why the heck is this on your list of spells that "magnify the damage of the weapon user" You seem unaware that concentrating on one spell prevents you from concentrating on a second without breaking concentration on the first. Tiny servant is subject to resistance to nonmagical b/p/s & I covered that before you brought it up twice more. Greater invis & the invisible condition do not do whatever you have them confused for to think it grants a 25% damage boost. Thank you for helping to make my case. [/QUOTE]
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