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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8114637" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>A fireball isn't zone damage. Moonbeam is.</p><p></p><p>If you push a creature into a moonbeam, it damages them when pushed in, and again when it begins their turn.</p><p></p><p>So a 3rd level moonbeam does 16.5 save damage (half on success), plus that again every time someone pushes a monster into it, every round.</p><p></p><p>If the cost of that reposition was less than 16.5 (save for half) damage, you just magnified the repositioning action. BM pushing attack, Sword Bard flourish, shield master shove, etc.</p><p></p><p>This is on top of the "single spell, concentration, multiple taps" stuff; other players can leverage the zone damage to get more out of it.</p><p></p><p>You can do something a bit similar with fireball, where you position enemies to be into an ideal AoE shape, but with zone damage in 5e you get 2 taps each time you move a creature into it. In some edge cases, you can even play ping pong; two allies with a push can shove a creature through a moonbeam, then back again, each time triggering the damage.</p><p></p><p>All of this is less common (and often less efficient) than the simple "give your allies advantage", but the damage is more directly attributed to the spell caster, which gives some people warm fuzzies.</p><p></p><p>You asked a direct question, so I answered it. If you don't want your direct questions asked, don't ask them.</p><p></p><p>You then took exception to a pile of points, like "this requires concentration" and claimed I was being dishonest because or something because I picked concentration spells. Which is nonsense.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>In a concrete case, a single cast of otto's almost doubled an entire party's damage output on a kraken in a game just a week ago.</p><p></p><p>A level 9 wizard casting web fire (20 int, +4 proficiency, DC 17) on 8 enemies with a+2 dexterity save and magic resistance has a 50% accuracy rate, so 4 of them are restrained. If they have +4 strength, they can burn their action for a 40% chance to get free.</p><p></p><p>Any restrained foe is going to take insane danage, as I have explicitly modelled above, assuming your weapon using allies are at all good.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Yes, wizards are <strong>not very good</strong> at direct damage without optimization in 5e compared to martial characters with optimization. They are very good at boosting martial damage and control with very little effort (while martial characters are rarely any good at it).</p><p></p><p>But even there, you can generate extreme benefits with optimization. A hexblade 1/wizard 10 casting a level 5 magic missile deals (1d4+10)*7 = 87.5 auto-hit damage (magic missile is, by RAW, a single damage roll; so school of evocation 10 boosts it, as does hexblade hexblade's curse). That is quite good burst damage.</p><p></p><p>Or Warlock 2/Sorcerer X. Quicken Eldrich Blast all day long. Optimally hex or darkness (4 sp to cast it as a bonus action and see through it) with shadow sorcerer.</p><p></p><p>At Warlock 2/Sorcerer 9 you have a +9 to hit for (1d10+1d6+5)*6 = 84 damage (Hex), or 63 with advantage (Darkness).</p><p></p><p>You have 45 sorcerer points (via converting daily spell slots) and 2 short-rest sorcery points (which you might want to spend 1 on hex), which is a lot of rounds of quickened EB per day. (there are few 2nd level spells that deal 84 damage on a hit, and you convert 2nd level slots into enough sorcerry points to do exactly that)</p><p></p><p>The damage is force and necrotic, which is rarely resisted.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Does this mean that a random wizard who memorizes fireball isn't eclipsed? No, they are eclipsed.</p><p></p><p>If that is your point, that a wizard or sorcerer has to optimize to keep up with an optimized melee PC in single target damage, I'll say "sure".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8114637, member: 72555"] A fireball isn't zone damage. Moonbeam is. If you push a creature into a moonbeam, it damages them when pushed in, and again when it begins their turn. So a 3rd level moonbeam does 16.5 save damage (half on success), plus that again every time someone pushes a monster into it, every round. If the cost of that reposition was less than 16.5 (save for half) damage, you just magnified the repositioning action. BM pushing attack, Sword Bard flourish, shield master shove, etc. This is on top of the "single spell, concentration, multiple taps" stuff; other players can leverage the zone damage to get more out of it. You can do something a bit similar with fireball, where you position enemies to be into an ideal AoE shape, but with zone damage in 5e you get 2 taps each time you move a creature into it. In some edge cases, you can even play ping pong; two allies with a push can shove a creature through a moonbeam, then back again, each time triggering the damage. All of this is less common (and often less efficient) than the simple "give your allies advantage", but the damage is more directly attributed to the spell caster, which gives some people warm fuzzies. You asked a direct question, so I answered it. If you don't want your direct questions asked, don't ask them. You then took exception to a pile of points, like "this requires concentration" and claimed I was being dishonest because or something because I picked concentration spells. Which is nonsense. --- In a concrete case, a single cast of otto's almost doubled an entire party's damage output on a kraken in a game just a week ago. A level 9 wizard casting web fire (20 int, +4 proficiency, DC 17) on 8 enemies with a+2 dexterity save and magic resistance has a 50% accuracy rate, so 4 of them are restrained. If they have +4 strength, they can burn their action for a 40% chance to get free. Any restrained foe is going to take insane danage, as I have explicitly modelled above, assuming your weapon using allies are at all good. --- Yes, wizards are [b]not very good[/b] at direct damage without optimization in 5e compared to martial characters with optimization. They are very good at boosting martial damage and control with very little effort (while martial characters are rarely any good at it). But even there, you can generate extreme benefits with optimization. A hexblade 1/wizard 10 casting a level 5 magic missile deals (1d4+10)*7 = 87.5 auto-hit damage (magic missile is, by RAW, a single damage roll; so school of evocation 10 boosts it, as does hexblade hexblade's curse). That is quite good burst damage. Or Warlock 2/Sorcerer X. Quicken Eldrich Blast all day long. Optimally hex or darkness (4 sp to cast it as a bonus action and see through it) with shadow sorcerer. At Warlock 2/Sorcerer 9 you have a +9 to hit for (1d10+1d6+5)*6 = 84 damage (Hex), or 63 with advantage (Darkness). You have 45 sorcerer points (via converting daily spell slots) and 2 short-rest sorcery points (which you might want to spend 1 on hex), which is a lot of rounds of quickened EB per day. (there are few 2nd level spells that deal 84 damage on a hit, and you convert 2nd level slots into enough sorcerry points to do exactly that) The damage is force and necrotic, which is rarely resisted. --- Does this mean that a random wizard who memorizes fireball isn't eclipsed? No, they are eclipsed. If that is your point, that a wizard or sorcerer has to optimize to keep up with an optimized melee PC in single target damage, I'll say "sure". [/QUOTE]
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Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?
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