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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elf Witch" data-source="post: 5783635" data-attributes="member: 9037">The opposite is also true for me if I had to change everything I find that makes 4 unplayable for my group I  would find it more work then I want do.You realize that if it was a fact that most people find 3E magic to be over powered and unplayable Pathfinder would not be doing so well.The argument about the newbie and inexperienced player does not hold any water we were all inexperienced and new to the game at one time. And all the old editions have these kind of spells in them and so for 30 yeas we managed to play with them. Over the years my group has had plenty of newbies in it our current game as a person who had never played before not RPGs or video games she is playing a sorcerer and she has not had an issue with any of this. She did take improved invisibility as one of her spells known and sometimes she cast it on herself but she but more often she cats it on the rest of us when we need to all be sneaky. Sure she looked at knocked and we explained to her why for a sorcerer with a rogue in the party is really is a waste of a slot. DMs need to guide new players no matter what class they play and that means pointing out spell choices and other choices. Here is what I have gotten from this thread wizards should not be allowed to have any spells that might infringe on another class so no buffs, or spells to raise their ACs because that puts them in competition with the fighter.They should not be allowed to have knock or spider climb or invisibility because that infringes on the rogue.They should not have the ability to kill someone outright with a spell even if that spell has a save because that is not fair to the martial characters.They should not have any spell that circumvents what a DM has planned even if that requires the wizard to be almost epic level.They shouldn't have charm person because that takes away from the classes that have diplomacy. I guess using that logic they should not have domination either. I am not sure what wizards should be allowed to do. Though I have often read that they should be bards because that is closer to Gandalf.I really hope that WOTC realizes that not all people want such a neutered wizard that we want magic to be basically the way it has always been before 4E. Not saying that some tweaks are not needed magic item creation comes to mind.  And while I have no issue with a dial to turn magic down to 4E levels they need a dial to turn it up to older editions. If they don't have that I am not sure how many of us who didn't make the switch are going to be interest it is not like we don't have an in print game we can play.</blockquote>

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