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<blockquote data-quote="Arrowhawk" data-source="post: 5796320" data-attributes="member: 6679551">I realize this thread is reaching the end of its life expectancy, but I really wanted to belabor this point. You can't have &quot;balance&quot; unless all the units are exactly the same.&nbsp;&nbsp; I said this before in a post about 10 pages back, but balance is a misnomer in an RPG.&nbsp; To have things balanced, you have to put them on a scale so they can reach equilibrium.&nbsp; It is nonsensical to talk about balancing spell casting with martial combat.&nbsp; The only way this works is if spell casting and martial combat are functionally indistinguishable and merely have different names.&nbsp; Your very complaint (which I am sure is shared by many) that you want balance but don't want &quot;EVERY CLASS into the same power structure&quot; underscores the disconnect that runs rampant through this thread and discussion.&nbsp; True balance is something that requires provable certainty.&nbsp; There is absolutely no way to &quot;balance&quot; the Knock spell with Two Weapon Fighting.&nbsp; You can't even balance TWF with Power Attack.&nbsp; To even argue such a balance is achieved or possible is nonsensical.&nbsp; What you are all talking about is fairness, not balance.&nbsp;&nbsp; Is it fair to have a Wizard be able to do X while a Fighter can only do Y?&nbsp; That is the question you are all asking.&nbsp; As such, it has no right answer and that is why these discussions have no closure.&nbsp; You cannot balance characters that do different things.&nbsp; They will only be balanced when they are indistinguishable metrically...and then you're simply all playing the same class with a different label.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Arrowhawk, post: 5796320, member: 6679551"] I realize this thread is reaching the end of its life expectancy, but I really wanted to belabor this point. You can't have "balance" unless all the units are exactly the same. I said this before in a post about 10 pages back, but [I]balance[/I] is a misnomer in an RPG. To have things balanced, you have to put them on a scale so they can reach equilibrium. It is nonsensical to talk about balancing spell casting with martial combat. The only way this works is if spell casting and martial combat are functionally indistinguishable and merely have different names. Your very complaint (which I am sure is shared by many) that you want balance but don't want "EVERY CLASS into the same power structure" underscores the disconnect that runs rampant through this thread and discussion. True balance is something that requires provable certainty. There is absolutely no way to "balance" the Knock spell with Two Weapon Fighting. You can't even balance TWF with Power Attack. To even argue such a balance is achieved or possible is nonsensical. What you are all talking about is [I]fairness[/I], not balance. Is it [I]fair [/I]to have a Wizard be able to do X while a Fighter can only do Y? That is the question you are all asking. As such, it has no right answer and that is why these discussions have no closure. You cannot balance characters that do different things. They will only be balanced when they are indistinguishable metrically...and then you're simply all playing the same class with a different label. [/QUOTE]

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