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<blockquote data-quote="Agent Oracle" data-source="post: 3111545" data-attributes="member: 40076">Okay, My turn... if i may that is, i'd like to review some of the overarching themes of this thread, and discuss the various points / counterpoints, as they arise:It all started with driddle asking why he couldn't make Everything he wants in a D&amp;D character.Well, (1) It's called a fighter / wizard with max ranks in handle animal. who prestiges into Animal Lord. (2) Paladins happen to be paragons of order and reliability... and chaos... isn't.Then he asked about the ordering Chinese approach.Of course, he then decides to make the classic &quot;Why can't I do this in D&amp;D&quot; class: the social-fu monster.Basically asking &quot;Why can't I dump a major class feature for no appreciable difference from a straight bard?&quot;&nbsp; The lack of a Social-fu class has long been the counterpoint to D&amp;D.&nbsp; Primarily, i think the fact that Divination does not actually tell the future in D&amp;D is a major hinderance to that.&nbsp; Since it's effectively asking the DM to guess at what the players will do.&nbsp; Also, Social-fu tends to be very... how to put this. DULL.&nbsp; Especially in a Table-top game like D&amp;D where social contact, while important, simply does not get the blood pumping the way that a well-designed set piece battle against the big bad evil guy does.&nbsp; Honestly, did Pride and Prejudice ever make anyone argue about the stats of a Jane Austin character?Now, a lot of back-and-forth about &quot;point buy&quot; this and &quot;sub optimal&quot; that.&nbsp; it's all pretty dull, so i'll skip ahead to the next bit that matters... I'll skip the bit when Driddle started making veiled insults...And get to the sensible stuff... here's pawsplay's thoughts on the subject.A statement with which i wholeheartily agree!&nbsp;&nbsp; Just as has happened many times before in real life, people who don't want to associate with other people, don't.&nbsp; &quot;Listen, Willie...&quot;&nbsp; &quot;That's William.&nbsp; William viscount of Honeymeade&quot;&quot;Yeah, about that.&nbsp; Thraxnar and I were talking and... well, sure, your knowlege of courtly ways and proper etiquette is interesting an' all, but, well,&nbsp; yesterday, when the zombie hoarde was approaching, you didn't even draw that sword you carry...&quot;&quot;Of course not.&nbsp; It's a ceremonial blade given to me by the high queen of...&quot;Yeah, Yeah stop. Listen. Maybe you should stick to, i dunno, places where there are down comforters on the beds and suchlike?&nbsp; See, we're going to man an assualt against the necromancer-king who threatens...&quot;&quot;King? Surely i can reason with him!&quot;&quot;Sure, if by 'reason' you mean 'Become part of his mindless hoarde of zombies'.&nbsp; I'm afraid chasing down villany just isn't your style, and you've shown no inclination to change that... we took a vote... maybe you need to find a new group of comrades?&quot;Now, of course, this is a little over-dramatized, but it's hyperbolie for hyperbolie's sake.So, getting back on track, we came to Barak, whose analysis was pretty straightforward.Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me.&nbsp; though, the last time i encountered a system that had both point buy and pe-made, it was &quot;VORE: The Malestrom&quot; Minis game, which had great mechanics... but included a how-to system in their first book, and the &quot;build your own army&quot; system happened to produce better armies than what their pre-statted miniatures lines did.&nbsp; They never even got to make some of the armies before going under.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Agent Oracle, post: 3111545, member: 40076"] Okay, My turn... if i may that is, i'd like to review some of the overarching themes of this thread, and discuss the various points / counterpoints, as they arise: It all started with driddle asking why he couldn't make Everything he wants in a D&D character. Well, (1) It's called a fighter / wizard with max ranks in handle animal. who prestiges into Animal Lord. (2) Paladins happen to be paragons of order and reliability... and chaos... isn't. Then he asked about the ordering Chinese approach. Of course, he then decides to make the classic "Why can't I do this in D&D" class: the social-fu monster. Basically asking "Why can't I dump a major class feature for no appreciable difference from a straight bard?" The lack of a Social-fu class has long been the counterpoint to D&D. Primarily, i think the fact that Divination [i]does not actually tell the future[/i] in D&D is a major hinderance to that. Since it's effectively asking the DM to guess at what the players will do. Also, Social-fu tends to be very... how to put this. DULL. Especially in a Table-top game like D&D where social contact, while important, simply does not get the blood pumping the way that a well-designed set piece battle against the big bad evil guy does. Honestly, did [i]Pride and Prejudice[/i] ever make anyone argue about the stats of a Jane Austin character? Now, a lot of back-and-forth about "point buy" this and "sub optimal" that. it's all pretty dull, so i'll skip ahead to the next bit that matters... I'll skip the bit when Driddle started making veiled insults... And get to the sensible stuff... here's pawsplay's thoughts on the subject. A statement with which i wholeheartily agree! Just as has happened many times before in real life, people who don't want to associate with other people, don't. [i]"Listen, Willie..." "That's William. William viscount of Honeymeade" "Yeah, about that. Thraxnar and I were talking and... well, sure, your knowlege of courtly ways and proper etiquette is interesting an' all, but, well, yesterday, when the zombie hoarde was approaching, you didn't even draw that sword you carry..." "Of course not. It's a ceremonial blade given to me by the high queen of... "Yeah, Yeah stop. Listen. Maybe you should stick to, i dunno, places where there are down comforters on the beds and suchlike? See, we're going to man an assualt against the necromancer-king who threatens..." "King? Surely i can reason with him!" "Sure, if by 'reason' you mean 'Become part of his mindless hoarde of zombies'. I'm afraid chasing down villany just isn't your style, and you've shown no inclination to change that... we took a vote... maybe you need to find a new group of comrades?"[/i] Now, of course, this is a little over-dramatized, but it's hyperbolie for hyperbolie's sake. So, getting back on track, we came to Barak, whose analysis was pretty straightforward. Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. though, the last time i encountered a system that had both point buy and pe-made, it was "VORE: The Malestrom" Minis game, which had great mechanics... but included a how-to system in their first book, and the "build your own army" system happened to produce better armies than what their pre-statted miniatures lines did. They never even got to make some of the armies before going under. [/QUOTE]

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