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Message: <blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 8418068" data-attributes="member: 92511">My homebrew system basically spreads things out across all three -as you term them here- Parent/Child/Grandchild. For my system that would be be [Class] Category/Class[Archetype]/[Subclass]Specialist. Each level has their own features which they grant to the character, at various levels of broadness or specificity. They "layer" through the character concept to end up with a finished "class" that, hopefully, is differentiated from others of its type/category in flavor and crunch.To use an example from my organization to illustrate (since I do not have Sorcerers and Rangers are not Warriors for my system/setting)Parent: Warrior - to be a class (or subclass) that falls into the Warrior Category, first and foremost, you must be a character who predominantly meets the challenges of adventure through combat. Fighting is what you are good at, the primary role you serve in a party, and where a majority of your features are going to pertain. For my system, the following presumptions are also true:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">By default, you are assumed to not use/have magic! </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">By default, you are assumed to have access/proficiency to using all armor and weapons (though a different layer of the class structure may curtail or provide preferences/differences to this at some stage of development).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Strength is your primary ability.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">By default, you have a d12 HD.</li> </ol>The "chassis," if you will.Child: Fighter - the default class of the Warrior category. To be a Fighter, you have a suite of basic features that any/all specialist/specific kinds ("subclasses") of Fighters will have. This suite is (obviously) subject to some debate. Game system/edition all define it a bit differently, but there is an overall accepted baseline of what features "make" the Class[Child]. For a Fighter, in my system, this suite includes -all by to 5th level!- things such as:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">a base Attack & Damage roll bonuses: You are btter in combat than other class categories. "Proficiency Bonus, BAB," et al. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Battle Stamina": You can stay standing longer than your companions. "Second Wind," bonus to physical saves/abilities/skills, et al.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Specialization": You are better at using your equipment (and, again, at Fighting!) than some farm boy (or thief or mage) picking up a sword. "Fighting Styles," "Martial Maneuvers," et al., whatever they're called.  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Extra Attacks: self explanatory</li> </ul>I have a few others, but you get the idea. The "engine" has been added to chassis of our "Class machine."Now, in my own system, it should be noted, it is entirely possible for you to simply BE a Fighter...no subclass/specialist necessary. Define, equip, and flavor them how you like and play the guy/gal you want to play. The reason for choosing/adding a "subclass" to your character should be based on the character concept you want/will be the most fun for you. Not, necessarily, to get "more stuff" [powergamey features, what have you]. But to further "fluff" your character in ways that are meaningful, mechanically as well as with narrative.To whit, for the player who wants to be a Knight "in shining armor/defender of the innocent" kinda gal. They can do that with a Fighter. Buy some decent armor, sword and shield. Grab your lance or spear and get on that horse! Roleplay a person with honor and integrity, engage in all of the knightly acts and activity you perceive to be that sort of character, leap to your fellows defense, etc...OR, you can choose to layer your character further with the...Grandchild: Cavalier - a specialist "subclass" of the Fighter. You have all of the base body of the Warrior category. You have the bulk of the baseline "engine" of the Fighter class. THEN, we add some fuel and detailing to polish up our final "machine." This is the detail work. These features are directly tied to the flavor and narrative of being a Cavalier/Knight kind of Fighter/Warrior. For my version, this centers around two things:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Being a Specialist subclass, by default, means you must have a secondary ability score that matters and on which at least some of your core features will be fueled. For a Knight/Cavalier kinda character, to me, that ability is Charisma.  </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Being a Specialist subclass, by default, means you have a central singular feature on which several of your defining features are based or fueled by. For the Cavalier subclass, that feaure is the "Code of Honor:" the Cavalier's bread and butter, unique feature. It lends flavor to the character behavior and narrative actions. What do you get for that "narrowing" of your character concept from "Fighter"? Boons to situational attacks, boons to AC, bonuses to saves against various attacks, inspirational boons for your fellows, a "Knight's Challenge" to target foes, etc... All fueled by the Code of Honor and many "uses per day" keyed off of your Charisma score/bonus.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Then fill in with other bells and ribbons that are thematic to the subclass: a Horsemanship proficiency that makes you better than the average Fighter or other Warrior types; a "Courtly Courtesy" feature to allow some situational interactive bonuses/narrative help; the aforementioned Mounted Attack "bonus fighting style"/boon; add followers (squires) at later levels; and so forth.</li> </ol>Do you have Attack & Damage bonuses, like a Fighter? Yes. But you have more specialized training with your weapons, so you are better at "hitting" not necessarily damaging. Your added "damage output" (for those that care about such things) is in line with a Fighter because you, more often, are going to HIT with your strikes, and can do things, situationally, a base Fighter can not do (or necessarily would get to do at levels as early as yours): bonuses for mounted attacks, bonus attacks while defending others, and such like.Do you have Battle Stamina? Yes. And then some. The flavor of the Cavalier's preference for heavier armors means they are likely, on average, to have a higher AC, and receive some AC and save bonuses from their unique mechanic. So they are almost certainly going to stand as long, if not longer, than the Fighter in most situations. Do you get Extra Attacks? Yes. Maybe not as soon or as many as a "pure/true" Fighter. But yes. In certain situations, defending a designated "charge," for example, you may be get more than Fighters could get. So, for me and my two coppers, it's not a matter of "Parent/Child, Child/Grandchild, Parent/Grandchild." You need all three. Each layer/level of Class structure has its own set of -to my view- appropriate and specific dictating and defining features. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can not be considered a Warrior is you aren't eschewing magic for armor and weapons and relying on Strength.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can not be considered a Fighter without being the best at combat. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can't be Cavalier without a Code of Honor and effective Strength and Charisma. </li> </ul>The more narrow/specific you get with your character concept, the more features you may accrue, but those features will become more and more narrow to match the flavor/layer of the class structure. All three.</blockquote>

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