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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 8008126" data-attributes="member: 20564">Agree with you here.&nbsp; Moon Druids are survivable, not powerful, after Tier 1.&nbsp; Caster with class and subclass features that enhance casting will do it better even before their own subclass features limits when they can do it.&nbsp; Beast forms of the CR given for Tier 2 do a lot less damage than an average character, they are just mobility (for some forms) and damage soaks.The baseline power of the classes is ... the baseline power of the classes.&nbsp; If all classes had a powerful base class and powerful subclasses, they aren't out-of-balance.&nbsp; In other words, the power of the base classes - assuming they are even - has little effect on the power of the subclasses.And that's where it gets interesting.&nbsp; Because I think some base classes are more powerful than others and make up for it by having weaker subclasses, and vice-versa.&nbsp; For example, I think a Wizard less their subclass would be relatively close.&nbsp; A warlock less their subclass features (but still allowed to pick subclass specific invocations, since that's a separate base-class ability) is also not a huge change.&nbsp; Others make a big difference.To agree with you with an example, AD&amp;D only had divine casting go up to 7th level.&nbsp; Perhaps collapsing the druid and the cleric into a new 3/4 casting class, and then having a cloistered cleric (pure caster like the wizard, without armor) as a full casting class.But at that point, maybe just allow a little multiclassing instead of remaking a lot of variations with different mixes of casting power vs. powerful class features.One Fantasy Heartbreaker I did basically did this.&nbsp; It broke everything down to four or five classes - casting, weapon, skill, pet, special, with options per power source.&nbsp; Archetypes were made just by multiclassing whatever ratio of those you wanted.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Blue, post: 8008126, member: 20564"] Agree with you here. Moon Druids are survivable, not powerful, after Tier 1. Caster with class and subclass features that enhance casting will do it better even before their own subclass features limits when they can do it. Beast forms of the CR given for Tier 2 do a lot less damage than an average character, they are just mobility (for some forms) and damage soaks. The baseline power of the classes is ... the baseline power of the classes. If all classes had a powerful base class and powerful subclasses, they aren't out-of-balance. In other words, the power of the base classes - assuming they are even - has little effect on the power of the subclasses. And that's where it gets interesting. Because I think some base classes are more powerful than others and make up for it by having weaker subclasses, and vice-versa. For example, I think a Wizard less their subclass would be relatively close. A warlock less their subclass features (but still allowed to pick subclass specific invocations, since that's a separate base-class ability) is also not a huge change. Others make a big difference. To agree with you with an example, AD&D only had divine casting go up to 7th level. Perhaps collapsing the druid and the cleric into a new 3/4 casting class, and then having a cloistered cleric (pure caster like the wizard, without armor) as a full casting class. But at that point, maybe just allow a little multiclassing instead of remaking a lot of variations with different mixes of casting power vs. powerful class features. One Fantasy Heartbreaker I did basically did this. It broke everything down to four or five classes - casting, weapon, skill, pet, special, with options per power source. Archetypes were made just by multiclassing whatever ratio of those you wanted. [/QUOTE]

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