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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8449557" data-attributes="member: 7030563">2d8 3 times a day in tier 2 is 27 damage and depending on movement can both prevent multiattack and it breaks grappling/swallowing attacks from enemies like Ropers and shambling mounds.&nbsp; It also can push an enemy into difficult terrain or other &quot;bad&quot; terrain.It is not as big as everyone thinks.&nbsp; Using a greatsword against a 15 AC foe with 2 attacks a turn, a 16 Strength, GWM will do less than 1 point DPR (0.26 in actually) compared to someone who took an ASI in strength.&nbsp; That also is using your BA to make an extra attack every time you roll a crit with one of your attacks.&nbsp; If you don't use your bonus action you do less in damage than someone who took the ASI.&nbsp; If you compare it to taking another feat (which is more appropriate here) you are doing an extra 1.3 DP attack (2.6 DPR) including your bonus action attacks.To compare the others I mentioned:GGD: does an average of 9 every time you use it, with a save for half (4.5).&nbsp; To make this comparison fair we will assume the chance of a save is 1 in 3.&nbsp; You can use it 3 times a day in tier 2 so it will still do on average 22.5 damage per day.&nbsp; So in terms of damage it is the equivalent of 17 attacks using GWM against a 15 AC foe plus the additional movement which is difficult&nbsp; to account for mathematically.Armor of Agathys: cast once at 3rd level is going to save you 15 hps of damage and probably averages doing around 20-25 points of damage to the enemy (with a minimum of 15).&nbsp; Now RAW you do need 3rd level spells to get that and you need to burn a 3rd level slot, and depending on how your DM views the wording on magic initiate you may need a level in Sorcerer or Warlock too.&nbsp;&nbsp; But in terms of damage is on the order of 19 attacks using GWM against a 15 AC foe plus the additional 15hps damage it saves from you.&nbsp; It does take an action to cast but since it lasts an hour that is usually done out of combat.Finally as I mentioned above the level of play matters, because AOA is tied to spell slots and GGD is tied to proficiency these get better at higher levels, where GWM stays about the same for most classes that get it (or actually gets worse as more BAs become available).&nbsp; Even subpar defenses things like Gift of the Metallic Dragon get pretty good at tier 4 when it adds +5 to AC, being the equivalent of a free shield spell 5 times a day.&nbsp; That is much, much better at PB +5 than it is at PB +2.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8449557, member: 7030563"] 2d8 3 times a day in tier 2 is 27 damage and depending on movement can both prevent multiattack and it breaks grappling/swallowing attacks from enemies like Ropers and shambling mounds. It also can push an enemy into difficult terrain or other "bad" terrain. It is not as big as everyone thinks. Using a greatsword against a 15 AC foe with 2 attacks a turn, a 16 Strength, GWM will do less than 1 point DPR (0.26 in actually) compared to someone who took an ASI in strength. That also is using your BA to make an extra attack every time you roll a crit with one of your attacks. If you don't use your bonus action you do less in damage than someone who took the ASI. If you compare it to taking another feat (which is more appropriate here) you are doing an extra 1.3 DP attack (2.6 DPR) including your bonus action attacks. To compare the others I mentioned: GGD: does an average of 9 every time you use it, with a save for half (4.5). To make this comparison fair we will assume the chance of a save is 1 in 3. You can use it 3 times a day in tier 2 so it will still do on average 22.5 damage per day. So in terms of damage it is the equivalent of 17 attacks using GWM against a 15 AC foe plus the additional movement which is difficult to account for mathematically. Armor of Agathys: cast once at 3rd level is going to save you 15 hps of damage and probably averages doing around 20-25 points of damage to the enemy (with a minimum of 15). Now RAW you do need 3rd level spells to get that and you need to burn a 3rd level slot, and depending on how your DM views the wording on magic initiate you may need a level in Sorcerer or Warlock too. But in terms of damage is on the order of 19 attacks using GWM against a 15 AC foe plus the additional 15hps damage it saves from you. It does take an action to cast but since it lasts an hour that is usually done out of combat. Finally as I mentioned above the level of play matters, because AOA is tied to spell slots and GGD is tied to proficiency these get better at higher levels, where GWM stays about the same for most classes that get it (or actually gets worse as more BAs become available). Even subpar defenses things like Gift of the Metallic Dragon get pretty good at tier 4 when it adds +5 to AC, being the equivalent of a free shield spell 5 times a day. That is much, much better at PB +5 than it is at PB +2. [/QUOTE]

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