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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5396435" data-attributes="member: 5834">Rogues are the suckThat's too bad. My friend is playing a Zen Archer. I think he will be disappointed as the Two-hander Fighter and Invulnerable Rager barbarian come into their own. Sounds like a good idea.I house ruled the rogue to have good Fort Save. And we gave trapfinding to Bards, Inquisitors, and Rangers. We felt like Paizo Pathfinder held onto the old idea that only rogues can find magical traps. I find the decision to be short-sighted on Paizo's part.Paizo needs to give up on the rogue, sneaky trapfinder guy and make it an equivalent secondary melee or support class like the monk, bard, and inquisitor. And stop pigeon-holing groups so they have to have a rogue to find traps and for no other reason. And give he rogue too good saves finally for the love all that his holy. The bard, rogue, inquisitor, and monk all have two or more good saves. Why is Paizo hanging on to a sacred cow like one good save for the rogue? Makes people want to play them even less because of how easily neutralized or killed they are.The rogue should be designed with the idea of making it as fun to play and equivalent in ability as rangers, bards, inquisitors, and monks. Making rogues the only Trapfinding class has made Paizo and D&D in general lazy when designing the rogue class. It's like they say, "We'll make rogues the only trapfinder, so someone will have to play one", rather than making rogues stand on their own as a class at low and high level.I know my experience with rogues at high level is they are almost always running from fear, getting held, mind-controlled, destroyed by the fort attack spells or effects monstes use, poisoned, diseased, and just all around getting their behinds handed to them in brutal higher level encounters. The cleric and caster support has to focus on keeping the low will save fighters clean, so the rogue becomes a secondary concern because if the fighter goes down the party is dead.Sure rogues occasionally shine if they get off a nice run of sneak attacks. But they often still pale the fighter, barbarians, and the like as damage dealers and die far, far easier due to lower hit points, lower fort and will saves, and being the guy who handles traps and scouts in front. Often meaning one bad save or missed perception check leaves them in a bad way. Thus no one in my group plays a single class rogue because we get past lvl 10 most of the time. Once you get to high level, the gap in power between the rogue and other classes really begins to show itself as DMs design monsters with ACs and defenses to challenge amped up fighters, paladins, and barbarians making a rogue pale in comparison to them.Rogue is poorly designed. I get arguments from people that they are fine and do the most damage in the group. All I can say to those people is they must play with players who make poor design decisions when it comes to class construction.Because I know for a fact right now that a barbarian invulnerable rager could destroy the best played and designed rogue in straight up combat without breaking a sweat. So could a well-designed arcane caster. A fighter. A ranger. A paladin. A cleric. Just about any class in the game could make a rogue look like a total chump.No class should be that poorly designed where he needs other players to the degree the rogue does set up his one shining ability sneak attack. If the rogue waits for the two-weapon fighter to set up his sneak attack, the two-handed fighter has probably already killed the enemy the rogue was waiting to attack. Same with the smiting paladin or raging two-hander barbarian or the flurrying monk.Rogue is a poorly designed class. And will only shine in the weakest, most poorly designed parties. Until Paizo Pathfinder designs a better rogue class, I won't force my players to play one. Thus expanding trapfinding and giving the rogue good fort save in the hope someone might try one.But I doubt it. Rogue is too dependent on other classes to shine, mostly other melee classes. And other me melee classes do so much damage now, they will kill what the rogue was hitting before he gets a chance to shine.</blockquote>

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