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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5396533" data-attributes="member: 35909">Well, Zen Archer is all about getting lots of attacks and hitting a lot.  Perfect Strike (which 95% of the time resulted in two low or two high-but-not-enough-to-threaten-a-crit rolls and thus was utterly useless IME, but I just have crappy luck like that) helps with that.  As does getting Improved Precise Shot at the insanely early level of 6.  Honestly, THAT is the main draw for the class IMO.  Nothing else made me feel more useful than situations with light fog, some cover, or grappling compared to the ranger archer.  As long as it's not a high level game, the lack of ability to do just about anything else but damage shouldn't be a big issue as long as he doesn't get bored with that.  If he is in a high level game, like high enough for the level 17 Ki Focus (Bow) ability, he should buy up a bunch of the "fist" feats (Stunning Fist and Touch of Serenity being the biggest standouts, IMO).  Monks have the BAB for them at level 11, and while a Zen Archer doesn't get the class based improvements (like a normal monk's other status effect options with stunning fist), you're still a monk, so you still get each feat 1/day/monk level, which is a lot of additional daily resources.  And stunning from a bow at long range is pretty cool.I think Monk is still weaker, at least the standard monk.  Zen Archer specifically cuts down on MAD slightly and just by virtue of the ranged focus makes the monk's squishiness less hindering, but standard monk's got serious problems.  Pathfinder in general seems to hate MAD classes, with the "all physical stats only come in one slot" belt.  Not many casters need two mental stats, and when they do (cleric), not enough for it to be critical.  Martial classes?  They totally need Str, Dex, Con, at least 2 of those if not all 3.  Suckers!Don't neglect how dependent they are on casters to provide them with sneak attack, too! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Setting up flanking is often tedious, and with the nerf to <s>tumble</s> acrobatics, very dangerous.  Even though my rogue and later on monk both maxed ranks in it, I NEVER used it to tumble (I might have once the entire 4 month campaign, honestly), the ranks were for the other uses or for emergencies only.  DM would often try to say, "You have tumble!" to encourage me to move around more.  I'd yell back "tumbling is suicide!"  If he pressed about it, I gave my modifier and asked him if I seriously had a very high chance of avoiding an attack.  He generally left me alone after that. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />So umm...yeah, anyway.  PF removed a lot of means of getting sneak attack, especially ranged sneak attack (Grease, Blink, and splash weapon synergy, off the top of my head).  So I was actually figuring my rogue would be more dependent on the sorcerer for greater invisibility, summon flanking buddies to save me the danger of tumbling around, etc...  A gust of wind once in a while to disperse the extremely low level cloud/fog spells that even in the "more balanced" pathfinder completely hose a rogue's ability to fight was also nice to know you had waiting, for peace of mind.  I think rogue's possibly more dependent on caster classes in the long run.  In any case, switched off of rogue because I hated being so needy.I think rogue can be salvaged if you do more than just the fort saves, which is still a good idea.  Give them some sort of edge in skill usage, get rid of the rule that you can't sneak attack in concealment (leave it in for total concealment if you want), undo pathfiner's changes to how balancing effects your armor class, blink, ability to SA with splash weapons....  Maybe go back to 3E / Magic Item Compendium body slot rules for ability score enhancements...  Little tweaks like that would help a lot.  For level 10+, they could probably do with beefier Advanced Talents, and maybe class features to make their skill checks closer to the line of being magical.  Not sure how exactly, but if X times/day or once/day/each skill they're training in they get a massive bonus specifically towards trying to accomplish <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm" target="_blank">epic level skill abilities</a> (or similar power level abilities you houserule), it's probably on the right track.</blockquote>

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