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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5397230" data-attributes="member: 5834">reWhat's this stat boosting change in Pathfinder you are speaking of? Can you not stack on multiple ability enhancements to a single item any longer? I haven't read that yet.The problem my group has with rogues is the power of melee classes. Sneak Attack does great damage when it works. But rogues rarely get a chance to use it.Our parties are not statted with point buy. We use the 4d6 seven times method. Most every melee in the party starts with an 18 to 20 strength after racial benefits then stacks everything they can into strength.Most of my party melee prefer Two-handed weapons.They charge into battle and very few things they attack can withstand them for a round. We have a five person party with a Two-hander Fighter, an Invulnerable raging barbarian with  a Greatsword, and Zen Archer Monk. No one wanted to play a rogue because they are lacking compared to the other classes.These guys are all 5th lvl:The average damage for the Two-weapon fighter right now is 1d12+7 str +2 spec +1 fighter bonus +1 magic weapon +6 power attack=23 points a hit with a +11 to hit while power attacking. If he crits it's 3d12+51.The rager's average damage:2d6 +10 str +1 weapon +6 power attack=24 with a +11 to hit with power attackLet's take a comparable rogue with an 18 dex and say he rolls ok and has a 14 str using a rapier in sneak attack position just for kicks.1d6 +2str +1 weapon +3d6 sneak (average +10)=16 points of damage with a +10 to hit. Crit would be 1d6+3d6+6 damage.A rogue absolutely pales in comparison to two-weapon attackers built for dealing damage. And the two-weapon fighters don't have to flank or wait for position or hope the guy their attacking isn't immune to sneak attack. They just hammer.That's why people don't want to play rogues. They can't stand up to the brutality of the other melee in the group. Then on top of that the weak fort and will save make them vulnerable to not only poisons, death spells, and other severely damaging fortitude attacks, but they are also susceptible to will attacks like holds, charms, and the like.It's like they get to be the trapfinder and that's it. No party support abilities. They rely on the other classes to set up their sneak attacks. Their sneak attack damage often still pales in comparison to the big, bad melee hitters.And in our groups the monk at least is hard to kill. He gets great saves, a great AC, super fast movement, and a ton of other helpful abilities. With the addition of brass knuckles and an amulet of might fists with seven attacks, he often starts closing the damage gap past lvl 10 or so. And grappler monks are really helpful. You can get your CMD so high that once you grapple something, it has little hope of escape.Rogues are still the worst designed class in the game in any group that knows how to design a proper melee damage dealer, monk, or arcane caster. They have none of the utility of the cleric or bard. I hope in the future Paizo Pathfinder finally sits down and reduces sneak attack if they must and designs a rogue worth playing. Because I don't care how many people tell me it is worth playing, I as a DM and a player any class in this game better than anyone can design a rogue to shine brighter. Rogues are weak by design. And you would have to really try to make another class as weak as the rogue, especially in higher level game play.</blockquote>

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