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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kaisoku" data-source="post: 5397473" data-attributes="member: 58447">In my experience, and in my own theorycraft, the Rogue is no longer a class that you go to to deal brutal combat damage. You look more towards the Fighter (or Paladin depending on the enemy) for laying down carnage.And honestly, that's fine by me. The Rogue really shouldn't be competing against the full BAB classes for combat effectiveness.The Rogue has a number of talents and class abilities that make him a great troubleshooter and scout. The rest makes him a decent 2nd tier combatant.There's a number of new approaches in Pathfinder though, the playing field has simply changed.The APG has a spell Vanish at 1st level, so a Rogue going down magical talent lines can get brief invisibility fairly early on, and eventually can dispel magic with every attack for additional utility (good if you know the campaign is about fighting casters).Sniper Goggles (also in the APG) let you deal Sneak Attack damage at any range. This can make a rogue sniper actually viable (and deadly if you pick some of the other APG options, like halfling rogue favored class stuff, a couple new rogue talents, and the sniper rogue archetype).I'm glad that people are now looking at the Fighter primarily for being the guy that murders people in combat, and look at the rogue for more than just "deals massive damage". Poison crafting had an overhaul, making it a viable option as well with minimal investment.Regarding Tumbling... I preferred the concept of previous editions (it's about altering how you move to no longer present openings, not an "attack" against their "defense" to see if you get past).However, if this is your primary method of getting places in combat, there's ways to get your check up. The feats Acrobatics and Skill Focus (Acrobatics) will give you +5 bonus (and later a +10 at 10th level) that really kicks in your ability to pull this off.There's also a rogue talent in the APG that lets you move 30 feet without provoking an AoO after you hit a guy... basically you hit him and then move into your flanking position with impunity.Oh, and one other thing I noticed... the Dirty Trick combat maneuver allows you to cheaply apply the blinded condition to a target, giving you the ability to make sneak attacks against them.The feats that increase your odds at pulling the Dirty Trick off nearly eliminates the lower BAB, and lets you apply the condition for a number of rounds. Plus, the victim has to waste actions to remove it (at least a move action, and with the greater feat it's a standard action). Meaning the enemy no longer is capable of pulling off a full attack properly (more utility).</blockquote>

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