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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kaisoku" data-source="post: 5398481" data-attributes="member: 58447">I do agree though that what the Rogue class can bring to the table is the easier to deal with when it's not there.If you look at the roles as dealing with Killing Things, Troubleshooting and Healing, then it's harder to deal with a major lack in killing or healing, than with troubleshooting. Especially with what the Rogue can bring.Scouting can give a major advantage to a group in gameplay. I'm currently in a game with no scouting, and no sneaking, so we are walking into every combat at best hoping to start normally (but usually with a surprise round against us).Having the option to strike first when your opponent is off balance or unready is no small thing.The Problem: animal companions, magic (spells and items), lots of classes, and the revamped skill system all make it so people can "fill in" on this role "well enough".Troubleshooting can make dealing with some situations easier. Traps, trap-like spells and abilities, normally inaccessible passages or making them accessible causing way too much noise, etc.Bypassing these can give benefits similar to scouting (allowing you to get an advantage over your enemy), and can even be used to turn them against an enemy (using a trap similar to using terrain against your attackers).The Problem: These situations come up less often, such that when they do come up, it's not as critical that you deal with them as well as if you had a Rogue. Getting around them is often sufficient enough.Starting to see a pattern here. The Rogue class' non-combat stuff primarily gives "a bonus" rather than "filling a critical role".Trying to shore up a lack of healing, or lack of meatshield, is much harder to do (usually using a much more limited resource, like potions/wands or using summoned creatures).This doesn't make the Rogue class useless or "not viable", because he is giving something to the group.It does mean that if he's not there, it's not as difficult to change your tactics to accommodate the loss.If you are playing in a game where everyone is using tactics that already ignores the Rogue's additional talents, then the Rogue is going to seem like a mediocre character.If you are a player that wants to play a character that is always critical to the success of the group, then the Rogue might feel like wasted page space.I've really only ever played, and DM'd players who wanted to play, a specific character concept. In other words... "I feel like playing an Indiana Jones style of character" or "Conan" or "a Mind Controller" or "a follower of THIS god", etc.When looking at making your character from this perspective, the Rogue often does come up as a valid option.</blockquote>

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