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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4072130" data-attributes="member: 40961">This is illusory.  Its like arguing that the Fighter is a more diverse class than the Warblade because the Fighter can use ranged weapons.  Its true that the fighter has the option of ranged weapons while the Warblade does not (unless he spends a feat), but the only way it makes sense is if you disallow consideration of the Warblade's maneuvers.So... yes, if you disallow consideration of Rogue powers, Rogues are less diverse than they were before.  Similarly, I am shorter than my girlfriend if you don't count my legs.This is how I see this forum:Imagine taking the 3e rogue.  Give it a first level choice of +1 hit point per level or +5 feet of movement.  Call the first one "thuggish rogue" and the second one "fleet rogue."  This forum would then shriek that they DO NOT WANT to be pigeonholed into thuggish or fleet characters- they want to go back to the good old days when they had ALL KINDS of rogues they could play.  The idea of playing exactly the same rogue they did before except now with an extra ability simply would not occur to them.</blockquote>