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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceFractal" data-source="post: 4072624" data-attributes="member: 27704">Wow, I seem to have sparked quite a bit of response.  My thoughts in a second, but first - would people please stop mentioning that Rogues can gain proficiency with weapons like bows?  Yes, they can, and no, it doesn't matter.  Sneak attack, and all the powers seen in the preview, have a specific list of weapons you can use them with.  Proficiency is not the issue.*  The 4E Rogue is by no means the least flexible class I've seen.  However, it's ancestor, the 3E Rogue, was a combination of simplicity, flexibility, and utility that the 4E Rogue comes nowhere near.  Let's look at what a 3E Rogue could do:* Use any weapon, even including spells with attack rolls, to deliver their sneak attack.  * Gain sneak attack in a number of ways - by rushing into melee (flanking), hiding in the shadows, using magical aid (invisibility), or hindering their enemies (many spells, items, and other abilities, such as Grease).  * Have a wide range of skills that could take you anywhere from face to con-man to mechanical expert to explorer to scout to assassin.* Multiclass effectively with almost any martial or skilled class and many spellcasters (with the right split); use Sneak Attack in concert with abilities from other classes.* Remain viable against high-level foes (much more so than most non-spellcasters), without the balance-shattering abilities of high-level magic.* Use their abilities while in disguise with atypical equipment.Of this, the 4E Rogue may accomplish #2 and #5, but fat chance on the rest.  And honestly, the 3E Rogue was already well implemented mechanically - the 4E Rogue isn't worse in this aspect, but it isn't hugely better either.  So from where I'm sitting, this is a downgrade.  Is 4E the Vista of D&D?  I hope not.  And why are less flexible classes bad?  Because there are only going to be 8 or so in the PHB - simple as that.  If they were providing twice as many classes as 3E, they could make them half as flexible.  Since they're providing less, that doesn't work.  I'm not against supplements, but having to wait for PHBIII+ to play basic types of characters, when with better design I could be playing them right away, isn't inclining me to "upgrade".One more thing: The number of build options, even in 3E, was already virtually infinite.  What matters is the number of distinct paths - chosing between two powers that are both dextrous strikes with daggers, where one causes more damage up-front and the other causes bleeding, doesn't increase the number of viable directions available.  Chosing between three "blast people with fire" powers doesn't make the Wizard more flexible either.  *WotC_Miko posted an interesting hint in this direction, but didn't actually say you could get past the restriction with a feat.  Shurikens are light blades, and probably so are Rapiers, so the feat in question may just be Weapon Proficiency, which wouldn't help with a club, whip, or bow.</blockquote>

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