Consonant Dude
First Post
I'm reading a lot of interesting threads here about these three topics.
There are enthusiastic posts detailing how classes should be customizable. How races should be meaningful as more than a starting package and how themes can fine tune your character giving him further advantages. A lot of what I read is clever and I get that some people appreciate diving down into how all these things can be mechanically supported but when I piece it all together, it makes worries me.I always saw things such as classes, Races and (and now) Themes serving only two useful purpose for me:
-They are there to strengthen the thematic concept of the protagonists (the PCs) so everybody at the table knows what the game is about. They're useful archetypes.
-Mechanically, using classes and races was a useful and quick way to map out your capabilities. I kick dragon butt. I summon divine powers. I'm good at climbing. I track fluffy bunnies. Furthermore, I have six abilities which I can combine (in various ways depending on which version of the game you play) to micro-define my character. It's simple and beautiful.
Of course, for some people there are drawbacks and they wish for further customization. So designers started playing around with all kinds of concepts. Skills, advantages and disadvantages, perks and so on. And pretty soon classless point-buy systems popped up. And I think they can be great if you want to micro-define characters to your heart's content. I guess later editions of DnD decided to look at ways to incorporate such things in a class system.
I get that people want all kinds of different ways to advance their dwarf race, all kinds of different ways to advance their paladin class and all kinds of ways to advance their sailor theme. But if Dwarven paladin-sailor are so mechanically different from each other, than do we even need classes and races and themes? It looks like something that has all the drawbacks of point-buy (primarily how freaking complex and time-consuming they are) with the added disadvantage of classes (they act as straightjacket) without the advantages of either. I want the system to empower players and DM and facilitate roleplaying. I want the players to be able to seek some new NPC out of the blue and it takes me no more than 3 minutes to stat him out. I want them to be able to roll characters quickly too. We should know what a 6th level Dwarven Paladin is like based on his class, level, his six ability scores and maybe a theme as a keyword. Otherwise, why have classes and races as mechanical constructs? Why not skip that step and build everything on skills, powers, feats and so on?
Here's the kind of problems I'm willing to suffer through during a session:
*******************
DM: A dozen orcs are now jumping on your ship. Guys, because of the storm and the fact your boat is rocking, you get a -2 penalty on your attacks.
Bill, with a mouthful of cheetos: fhaf vgonna ve a fough fighf!
Steven: Do you think that, with my character being a dwarf his center of gravity would help him keep on his feet?
DM: Hmm, that's right! And since he is also a sailor, I would say not only will he ignore the penalty, he gets a +1 to hit.
Steven: Cool! Hey, what's the matter DM? Did we just break the system? Is this improvised call gonna have a large impact on the campaign? Should we start a thread on some forum and have a flame war about the insidious effects of this ruling? Should we meditate at length on the virtues of grocery lists of skills and feats and racial powers?
DM: No, it's not that. It's Bill. He's eating all the Cheetos and I would really like to have some, for once.
*******************
That's it. Anything more than that and my head hurts. I realize not everybody is like that and some prefer micro-defining characters further and I respect that. But I would prefer a very robust core system that is fast in prep and play. And I believe calling bonuses on the fly will do more justice to the dwarf and the sailor than anything but the most exhaustive list of skills and feats and special powers. And I don't want those lists because they break my balls and prevent me from having a good time and catching Bill when he empties the Cheetos bowl. I believe the reason that in recent polls so many people vote for ADnD is not because it was such an awesome, internally consistent system. I like 1e as much as 3e. All editions have their strengths and weaknesses. But to real beauty of older DnD is how you don't get a headache and you can prep it and run it swiftly. And if I really want to focus on exhaustive lists of micro-talents, I'll run a point buy system cause that's what they are for.
Just my 2 cents. But I would rather have a simpler DnD. Put some crunch in there but within reason and keep it as elegant as possible. No bloat.
There are enthusiastic posts detailing how classes should be customizable. How races should be meaningful as more than a starting package and how themes can fine tune your character giving him further advantages. A lot of what I read is clever and I get that some people appreciate diving down into how all these things can be mechanically supported but when I piece it all together, it makes worries me.I always saw things such as classes, Races and (and now) Themes serving only two useful purpose for me:
-They are there to strengthen the thematic concept of the protagonists (the PCs) so everybody at the table knows what the game is about. They're useful archetypes.
-Mechanically, using classes and races was a useful and quick way to map out your capabilities. I kick dragon butt. I summon divine powers. I'm good at climbing. I track fluffy bunnies. Furthermore, I have six abilities which I can combine (in various ways depending on which version of the game you play) to micro-define my character. It's simple and beautiful.
Of course, for some people there are drawbacks and they wish for further customization. So designers started playing around with all kinds of concepts. Skills, advantages and disadvantages, perks and so on. And pretty soon classless point-buy systems popped up. And I think they can be great if you want to micro-define characters to your heart's content. I guess later editions of DnD decided to look at ways to incorporate such things in a class system.
I get that people want all kinds of different ways to advance their dwarf race, all kinds of different ways to advance their paladin class and all kinds of ways to advance their sailor theme. But if Dwarven paladin-sailor are so mechanically different from each other, than do we even need classes and races and themes? It looks like something that has all the drawbacks of point-buy (primarily how freaking complex and time-consuming they are) with the added disadvantage of classes (they act as straightjacket) without the advantages of either. I want the system to empower players and DM and facilitate roleplaying. I want the players to be able to seek some new NPC out of the blue and it takes me no more than 3 minutes to stat him out. I want them to be able to roll characters quickly too. We should know what a 6th level Dwarven Paladin is like based on his class, level, his six ability scores and maybe a theme as a keyword. Otherwise, why have classes and races as mechanical constructs? Why not skip that step and build everything on skills, powers, feats and so on?
Here's the kind of problems I'm willing to suffer through during a session:
*******************
DM: A dozen orcs are now jumping on your ship. Guys, because of the storm and the fact your boat is rocking, you get a -2 penalty on your attacks.
Bill, with a mouthful of cheetos: fhaf vgonna ve a fough fighf!
Steven: Do you think that, with my character being a dwarf his center of gravity would help him keep on his feet?
DM: Hmm, that's right! And since he is also a sailor, I would say not only will he ignore the penalty, he gets a +1 to hit.
Steven: Cool! Hey, what's the matter DM? Did we just break the system? Is this improvised call gonna have a large impact on the campaign? Should we start a thread on some forum and have a flame war about the insidious effects of this ruling? Should we meditate at length on the virtues of grocery lists of skills and feats and racial powers?
DM: No, it's not that. It's Bill. He's eating all the Cheetos and I would really like to have some, for once.
*******************
That's it. Anything more than that and my head hurts. I realize not everybody is like that and some prefer micro-defining characters further and I respect that. But I would prefer a very robust core system that is fast in prep and play. And I believe calling bonuses on the fly will do more justice to the dwarf and the sailor than anything but the most exhaustive list of skills and feats and special powers. And I don't want those lists because they break my balls and prevent me from having a good time and catching Bill when he empties the Cheetos bowl. I believe the reason that in recent polls so many people vote for ADnD is not because it was such an awesome, internally consistent system. I like 1e as much as 3e. All editions have their strengths and weaknesses. But to real beauty of older DnD is how you don't get a headache and you can prep it and run it swiftly. And if I really want to focus on exhaustive lists of micro-talents, I'll run a point buy system cause that's what they are for.
Just my 2 cents. But I would rather have a simpler DnD. Put some crunch in there but within reason and keep it as elegant as possible. No bloat.
