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Classic High Level Threats?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6948112" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I know that was a thing all through the early game, and a self-fulfilling prophesy for 3.x (their research showed people didn't play to high levels, so they didn't playtest high level play much, so it sucked, so people didn't play to high levels), but it needn't have been that way for 5e. Seems like there are plenty of iconic 'high level' monsters, especially considering that 5e Bounded Accuracy lets a 'high level' (CR) monster be used at a much lower level (and vice versa).</p><p></p><p>There's little about 5e that's radically different from those classic editions. The biggest differences I can see between high-level 5e and high level classic D&D (AD&D 1e is classic ed I'm most familiar with) are that saves got much better across the board at high level, while in 5e most of them tend to languish, and that the exp required to level ballooned at high level in the classic game, but in 5e you're actually likely to blow through high levels faster than you did the mid-level 'sweet spot.'</p><p></p><p>It can take a while to even want high level play. There's an impetus to try a new character and new options for instance, when the game is new. And of course, it's expected to start at 1st level and it naturally takes time to bring a character to high levels 'legitimately' from there. So it's hardly surprising that there haven't been a lot of high level campaigns only 2 years in. Then there's the AL format. It's not as extremely low-level-oriented as Encounters 1st-4th over and over, nice as that was for introducing new players, but it still doesn't encourage high level play.</p><p></p><p>That's not unreasonable. If you do the same thing, you expect the same result. 5e tries very hard to be recognizably the same as D&D, especially classic D&D, which is where a number of classic bugaboos (5WMD, LFQW, etc) that contributed to high-level problems were established. If you're playing a game that strongly reminds you of the game you loved 25-40 years ago, but that always found a lot less lovable after 9th level, it's understandable if you don't try to play through to 20th. It's not even irrational, Vancian magic seems, if anything, even less 'restrained' than back in the day, hps balloon even faster - the old problems seem like they'd be present.</p><p></p><p>Nod. I think of high-level threats as the 'Three D's from back in the day: Demons, Devils, and Dragons. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Thing is, I haven't memorized a MM since the 80s, so I'm actually not sure what's 'missing' from the latest one. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6948112, member: 996"] I know that was a thing all through the early game, and a self-fulfilling prophesy for 3.x (their research showed people didn't play to high levels, so they didn't playtest high level play much, so it sucked, so people didn't play to high levels), but it needn't have been that way for 5e. Seems like there are plenty of iconic 'high level' monsters, especially considering that 5e Bounded Accuracy lets a 'high level' (CR) monster be used at a much lower level (and vice versa). There's little about 5e that's radically different from those classic editions. The biggest differences I can see between high-level 5e and high level classic D&D (AD&D 1e is classic ed I'm most familiar with) are that saves got much better across the board at high level, while in 5e most of them tend to languish, and that the exp required to level ballooned at high level in the classic game, but in 5e you're actually likely to blow through high levels faster than you did the mid-level 'sweet spot.' It can take a while to even want high level play. There's an impetus to try a new character and new options for instance, when the game is new. And of course, it's expected to start at 1st level and it naturally takes time to bring a character to high levels 'legitimately' from there. So it's hardly surprising that there haven't been a lot of high level campaigns only 2 years in. Then there's the AL format. It's not as extremely low-level-oriented as Encounters 1st-4th over and over, nice as that was for introducing new players, but it still doesn't encourage high level play. That's not unreasonable. If you do the same thing, you expect the same result. 5e tries very hard to be recognizably the same as D&D, especially classic D&D, which is where a number of classic bugaboos (5WMD, LFQW, etc) that contributed to high-level problems were established. If you're playing a game that strongly reminds you of the game you loved 25-40 years ago, but that always found a lot less lovable after 9th level, it's understandable if you don't try to play through to 20th. It's not even irrational, Vancian magic seems, if anything, even less 'restrained' than back in the day, hps balloon even faster - the old problems seem like they'd be present. Nod. I think of high-level threats as the 'Three D's from back in the day: Demons, Devils, and Dragons. ;) Thing is, I haven't memorized a MM since the 80s, so I'm actually not sure what's 'missing' from the latest one. ;) . [/QUOTE]
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