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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 6948189" data-attributes="member: 6855114">In my opinion, all (or almost all) of the classic have been identified. Of course I am not counting those from the epic handbook or other such panaphranelia. But why is it that high level play is often shuned by DM and players alike?The answer is two fold. First, the amount of work needed for a DM to successfully create such a campaing is almost crazy. Options in the hands of the players are almost limitless and relatively little will be hidden from them. At these levels, players versatility is something to reckon with. The second part of the answer comes directly from how D&D 5ed has been built. It was built for campaings under or ending at 15th level. The writers said so themselves.But is it possible to have these high level threats challenge players without over doing it?Yes, but the amount of work is really high and the DM must be careful not to shut down players habilities for the sake of doing so.In one of my highest campaing, the players had to slay a fallen ArchDevil that was attempting a return to the graces of Asmodeus. They had been foiling his plan since their first level and now they needed to invade his abode in hell. With the help of divinations, they knew full well the layout of the fortress (save some secret passages and some protected rooms). They had summoned devils and forced them to tell them most (if not all ) of what they knew. If the Archdevil Rathabaxus had his way, the Nine Hells would have become 10... quite a shift in the powers on the planes.To get to Rathabaxus, the players had to get the help of an Angelic Army. A direct assault from themselves would only have resulted in their death. Literally thousands of devils were in the services of Rathabaxus, not counting the lieutenants and high level servants. They used their knowledge to finally get to the Archdevil and his closest lieutenants. The fight was hard and they almost died. There were different traps and mystical protection to get into the forteress including a teleport trap that could have insta killed the players. Through their divinations they knew the "safest" way but it was far from easy. Players had to act fast as they only had two hours to complete the task before the angelic army was forced to retreat as other devils would have come to the fray (not to help but to have a chance to kill angels. Hate runs deep in the fiends...).All that to say that the difficulty does not lie in the abscence of knowledge but in what to do with that knowledge. A lich can be quite a killer or a simple and easy obstacle to overcome. Epic plays does not necessarily need unbeatable monster, it needs unbeatable odds if some clever thinking and planing is not used. Unfortunately, it requires a lot of the DM free time to make such adventures.That means no 5 minutes preps to make an adventure. You need much more than that. I estimate about 2.5hours of preparation for each hours of expected play. More or less. High/epic level adventures are not for the lazy DM. Maybe it is why we don't see these kind of adventures in 5ed APs.</blockquote>

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