D&D 5E Clay Golem HP Drain

[Stalker0]

These are all minor variations on the "DM can fix anything!' point.

I would argue that this was one of the goals of 5e.


One thing that 3e and 4e attempted to do was remove DM decision making from a lot of the game. It used an increasingly codified set of rules to create balanced and fair play.

However, with the rise of computer games and MMO...the pen and paper market had a realization. How does their product compete? I mean, I can have much faster combat, much more detailed character abilities, much more complicated math in a computer game. So what's left?

The answer is....a human DM. The best AI out there is still just plain I, a DM can adjust the game on a dime, can handle any scenario, can allow players to adjust their character beyond any codified parameter. The human DM is the reason that pen and paper games can still compete in today's market.



So I do believe that 5e has gone back to the early days of Dnd, where DMs are given the responsibility to handle corner case scenarios. That said...the system doesn't expect DMs to make calls on every little circumstance. The game still attempts to provide us clear, organized rules that can handle the majority of situations. But it does take the kid gloves off a bit...and says "if a situation comes up that isn't quite working...the DM has the authority to do what needs to be done for the good of the game".


Going back to the golem scenario. The MM provides us this monster, which is different than your normal beat em up orc or kobold. This monster is special, and can hurt players in a way a normal monster can't. The DM who would use such a monster has to decide how to handle it:

1) Don't use it. It doesn't fit the game, so its left out. Plenty of other monsters in the book to use.
2) The party fixes it through their own roles.
3) Its fixed through magic items.
4) Its fixed by hiring someone.
5) Its fixed by a special quest.
6) Its fixed by a long bout of rest under special care.
7) Its not fixed, and becomes a special plot point in the game.


All of these options can work, and its for the DM to decide which options work best for his game.

 

[I'm A Banana]

KM, I haven't bothered to read the entire thread (and maybe I should have) but do you remember the time of cursed weapons and where curses would last, I don't know, like forever - I'm curious to know what you as DM did then in those situations with your three fighters? Or how about when there was no Surge or HD mechanic, how did your fighters heal when they ran out of healing potions or charges for their wands of cure x wounds?

What, like in 2e and earlier? Never really arsed with cursed items back in the day. But yeah, I think that the inability of anyone else to remove curses in 2e was an issue with 2e that worked against its stated goals of playing whatever fantasy character you imagine, too.

However, with the rise of computer games and MMO...the pen and paper market had a realization. How does their product compete? I mean, I can have much faster combat, much more detailed character abilities, much more complicated math in a computer game. So what's left?

The answer is....a human DM. The best AI out there is still just plain I, a DM can adjust the game on a dime, can handle any scenario, can allow players to adjust their character beyond any codified parameter. The human DM is the reason that pen and paper games can still compete in today's market.

That's good ad copy, but in this specific instance, forcing me as a DM to butt-pull some excuse as to how a 3-fighter party can face a clay golem and not be crippled is a bad play experience for me. It is not fun. It is anti-fun. It disrupts the flow I am trying to achieve and makes me pay special attention to fixing this problem.

So if the DM's judgement call is not resulting in a good play experience for the DM, maybe the DM's judgement call is not a panacea for design problems, and is more something that the game should be worried about enabling when the DM actually wants it. I'm not advocating for removing the DM from the game, I'm saying that I should be making the decisions I WANT to make (like, "what's the story of the ruins these golems are in?") not being forced by the game to fix the problems it creates for me ("nevermind about that story, your party has 6 max HP at level 9, this is not viable! You need to fix this before you tell your story!")

Again, simple labeling would go a long way for this. If the players KNEW that a party of 3 fighters wouldn't be able to handle the default encounters up-front (and, even better, how they would be weakened!), then I'd know beforehand what I'd need to fix, and I could work it into the narrative ("the story is: they're guarding a fountain that heals injury!"). But this "SURPRISE! The game needs you to attend to it now!" is not empowering me to make good DMing juju, it is CRIPPLING that.

1) Don't use it. It doesn't fit the game, so its left out. Plenty of other monsters in the book to use.
2) The party fixes it through their own roles.
3) Its fixed through magic items.
4) Its fixed by hiring someone.
5) Its fixed by a special quest.
6) Its fixed by a long bout of rest under special care.
7) Its not fixed, and becomes a special plot point in the game.

1) Why do I need a high level of system mastery to know that 3 fighters can't fight a clay golem?
2) Why aren't the players ever told of the roles they need to fill?
3) How does the game assure that parties can access the right magic items?
4) RAW indicates that beyond low-level magic, "hiring someone" means a side-quest. What if I don't have the time/inclination/interest in having a side-quest?
5) See above.
6) That's not how the game is written.
7) See point #4.

 

[Stalker0]

1) Why do I need a high level of system mastery to know that 3 fighters can't fight a clay golem?

With respect, its because your the DM. Its somewhat expected that you will read the monster's abilities, at least right before your party fights it.

And again, your the DM. If you want 3 fighters to fight that clay golem...then they can! If they are fighting it, and suddenly you realize "omg, that cursed wound is going to cripple my party for the rest of the adventure!"...then once the fight is over you say "the wounds resist healing but the effects will end in time, a few minutes of rest will do the trick".

That is how the clay golem actually works in your game...because your the DM.


If I can say one thing about all of my time DMing, is that all DMs have to learn to do with sudden situations. Players will always do the unexpected. The dice will sometimes take you places you never thought you were going to go. Part of Dming is rolling with that, and making rulings that work for your game. A monster ability is no different.

 

[Stalker0]

3) How does the game assure that parties can access the right magic items?
4) RAW indicates that beyond low-level magic, "hiring someone" means a side-quest. What if I don't have the time/inclination/interest in having a side-quest?
5) See above.
6) That's not how the game is written.

3) The DM says so. Oh you guys got this terrible cursed wound. Good thing there is a magic item hidden in this dungeon that will fix that right up!
4) The DM can always overwrite RAW. DM wants there to be someone who can help...then there is someone to help.
6) Game is written with Rule 0...the DM can overwrite anything in the rules. If the rules aren't jiving with your group, you have the power to change it to make your game better.

 

[The Hitcher]

I think it's worth entertaining the idea that not all DMs are the same, that we have different strengths and weaknesses,

I explicitly said as much earlier up the thread. But it's impossible to support the playstyle of every single unique individual with the default RAW. The way 5E makes up for that is being extremely easy to modify to your own purposes. The minimum requirement for that, however, is that you read the rules before you use them. I'm not sure that there's any way around that fact.

I'm repeating myself now, so I'm going to bow out. I hope you find what you're looking for in the DMG.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I love these kinds of combat residual effects like the HP drain. Love it! Makes the battle a more serious affair with longer lasting consequences.

Also why I am very keen to see the lasting wounds module in DMG.

 

[Sadras]

What, like in 2e and earlier? Never really arsed with cursed items back in the day. But yeah, I think that the inability of anyone else to remove curses in 2e was an issue with 2e that worked against its stated goals of playing whatever fantasy character you imagine, too.

Okay perhaps I wasn't clear enough, although @Stalker0 mentioned it as a point and you dismissed it quite quickly surprisingly, and IMHO, didn't appear to give it much thought.

The point I was trying to make: Often a party might hire out the services of (and these are NOT side quests)...

• an artisan for their services (blacksmith, cartographer, scribe, tracker...etc)
• a person knowledgeable in a specific field (sage, fortune-teller, priest for divine guidance...etc)
• an alchemist or wizard to identify items or commission to enchant/restore a specific item...etc
• a healer
• a merchant for trade goods
• a captain to gain passage on his vessel...etc

My point is, if all these things are acceptable to you, as they should be (refer page 159 PHB 5E - which includes hiring the services of spell casters), then:

1) Why do you raise such objection for seeking out the services of a healer for the wound effects of a clay golem?

2) How is this different to seeking out the assistance of a cleric to cure a party member for lycanthropy? or even to resurrect a fallen party member?

3) Are you also against a party of fighters who seek to reverse the petrification of one of their own after having encountered a medusa? or to silver their weapons when dealing against lycanthropes?

Where am I misunderstanding you? Because I honestly do not see the logic behind your argument.

 

[Wild Gazebo]

I think it is a stunning lapse of reason to alter an assumed basic function of a game, like the access to divine magic (not necessarily within the PC party), and then feel you wouldn't have to alter other aspects of the game.