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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1804793" data-attributes="member: 5777">Then you would be outside of the 'most'. You can like cleave and also dislike the aoo, I went out of my way to say most.Some people dont like the 5' step, some people like cleave but dont like the aoo, some like aoo but dont like cleave, whatever.It just seems to me that most people who dont like this combo effectively just dont like cleave. Exactly for the reasons that rkanodia pointed out. His entire arguement simply sounds like, 'I dont like cleave'. Hence the point I made. (I know rkanodia came back and said he likes cleave, however, his initial post still sounds like a 'I dont like cleave because of this' type of response because cleave does the same thing in either circumstance in the case he made, it just so happens that someone got an extra attack in somewhere ::shrugs:: effectively the same though)Someone did something dumb and someones else, who is very good at taking advantage of these situations, was able to benefit from it. Fine.Just like if someone fireballs the guy next to you but you were invisible and they didnt know you were there. The fireball guy got an extra target in and he wouldnt have hit you at all if the other guy hadnt been there, in effect him being there caused you to be at a disadvantage. Fine. It happens. Sometimes the world around you puts you in a bad situation through no fault of your own.Not really. It doesnt really have a useful amount of bearing here. If one is level 20 and useing level 5 grunts then you expect them to do little to nothing (except get lucky now and then) and provide you with extra weaknesses (easy to infiltrate, might set you up in a bad situation, can be fooled into various bad manuevers fairly easily, etc).That is the problem with useing bad help, sometimes it will hurt you, especially when the other character has a few feats to take advantage of it (and in this situation these feats take advantage of this sort of situation directly, nothing wrong with that).They are a weakness that can be exploited in the proper circumstances.Hiring someone who then backstabs you is a bit beyond the 'bad help' line. Bad help is someone letting the pc's in because they said they really needed to deliver this important letter to the boss and no one else could touch it and no, he shouldnt bother to let anyone know ahead of time.The line you are drawing there is someone fooling 'you' into hiring them and then them getting off with your stuff. Completely seperate issues.::shrugs:: that is the way the game works sometimes. Someone else does something that will hinder you, someone makes a bad move that puts you in a bad position (much like chess, if you move one piece such that another is sacrificed that second piece didnt do anything wrong, it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time when some other piece got out of the way), or any number of other cirumstances.In this instance it isnt completely about you being punished for someone else so much as someone else having the skill to pull off a heroic stunt. It takes a lot of training and sacrifice to get that to work properly (I feel that the cleave tree is pretty weak generally, not too bad at lower levels but at higher levels it hardly ever comes up in a useful situation) and even then it is pretty circumstantial.But, to go back again to the 'punishment even though you did nothing wrong' the environment around you changed and put you in a bad situation. It happens and it happens all of the time in nearly every aspect of the game.It is a fairly marginal ability (you have to be in melee range with a big bad, someone has to provoke an aoo, you have to hit them, take them down, and then you can get an extra attack on the big guy, and you have to have all of the appropriate feats plus not have used your aoo on something else that round) and getting a little extra bang out of it every now and then seems all right.Definately not true. Anyone can be a disadvantage for you, and having fairly weak minion guys running around can easily cause problems for either side.With the examples of the poor door man (which can be very hindersome indeed) to them stepping on your toes at inappropriate times they can indeed be a disadvantage. Sometimes a major one.In this case it is a pretty small disadvantage since it is not likely to come up except with pretty unintelligent (but not nonintelligent generally) minions.If you believe that guys on your side can never put you in a disadvantage then we are not only not playing the same game but not living in the same universe <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (as a business associate of mine is a prime example.. he did something that he thought would be good, but wound up costing us quite a bit of money.. I didnt do anything wrong, but had to pay the price anyway.. in this case I guess someone else had the appropriate bluff bonus vs him <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> )Trying to draw fire away from yourself? dont keep your minions near you.. it will attact area of effect spells and keep you from being able to do whatever you want to do properly.In this case it will also help you keep away from stray shots as the other team takes down your guys. That is exactly how cleave works anyway.</blockquote>

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