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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lamoni" data-source="post: 1805801" data-attributes="member: 12680">I am quite confused that you can still be confused by it.Let me add another example to the numberless examples already given.Characters: BBEG, Fred the Fighter, Mike Mook.Fred is fighting BBEG.Fred hits BBEGBBEG hits FredMike tries to disarm FredFred takes AoO against Mike (who doesn't die)(Next round)Fred hits Mike and drops himFred makes cleave attempt and hits BBEGBBEG hits FredThis example showed an AoO.  It also showed a Cleave.  No one that is saying that Cleave doesn't make sense with an AoO would have a problem with this scenario.  The AoO works just like it is supposed to.  We LIKE AoO.  The Cleave also works just like it is supposed to (the fighter gets an extra attack).  We LIKE Cleave.  The thing that we say we dislike is the COMBINATION of Cleave with an AoO.  Many people have repeated that several times, but you always effectively say, "No, you still just have a problem with Cleave."In the situation I described above, Mike still gets use of his AoO.  He also gets an extra attack from cleave.  In the other examples that describe why the combination doesn't make sense, Mike would be getting a third attack against BBEG in two rounds instead of just two.  He gets punished by what Mike does.  No, it isn't the same as a fireball.  The invisible person gets damaged by the fireball based on there being a fireball there.  The BBEG got damaged because the fighter was distracted by this other stupid guy trying to disarm him.You have said yourself that it is a very rare occurance.  Therefore would it really be a problem to remove the cleave ability from happening with AoO's?  I say no.  Then you don't have the problem with someone summoning mice like in the most recent example by reanjr.  Of course most DM's would just say "No, I don't think so" to a player who tried to do that, but according to the RAW, it is perfectly legal.We have explained why we don't like it (which was the topic of the thread).  You obviously think we just don't like cleave.  I'll continue to play with cleave in my games.  We'll also continue to take AoO's.  No, I don't think it is unbalanced (unless a player tries to abuse it with the mice trick).  Yes, I still think it is a silly rule.  I just hope you continue to enjoy your games and I'll continue to enjoy mine.</blockquote>

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