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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1806027" data-attributes="member: 5777">Some have mentioned that it is overpowered, I have demonstrated that it is not. If you feel that it isnt unbalanced then you may feel free to ignore those comments. However, that does not mean that they are unnecissary.But the reasons that are usually given for it not making sense dont make any sense. They tend to state things like, 'but that isnt how I picture it!'. Fine then, pick a new picture to describe it. Cleave is a pretty general, and difficult to imagine, ability to begin with. But, just because it cannot be easily pictured in this case does not mean that it isnt how it works.I have known dm's to get rid of any number of things because they dont know how to visualize it (one of the bigger offenders is getting rid of the 5' step because they didnt like the idea of it and it seemed silly to them).However, going through what the ability does and how it works and what exactly the consequences of it are should allow people to understand.But, that doesnt mean people still wont get rid of it, just like the dm mentioned above got rid of the 5' step because he couldnt live with it. These things happen. But it is important to realize that it can be made to work properly, and work well within the system at hand.As there are probably dozens or hundreds of other things that are just as unlikely in the game and yet those are allowed this reasoning seems a bit odd. Everyone has their personal limits of suspesion of disbelief of course, but that this happens to be what causes the 'huh?' seems very odd indeed.  (create a fireball from thin air? np! train yourself to take advantage of someone doing something dumb? now you are just going too far!).So the big bad hires some muscle, seems like a good idea at the time. Halfogre brute with the strength of 10 men, and cheap too! (let him eat whoever he kills and he is happy to do whatever you like).Along comes a caster of some sort and dominates the big brute. Suddenly THE RULES are 'punishing' the big bad from a situation which seemed beneficial! Uh oh!So I repeat one more time <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> It isnt the big bad being punished, it is someone else who is able to take advantage of a situation that is favorable for them.No, you are misinterpreting. I said that the only thing that sounded the most out of whack in the scenario was making up a custom spell purposefully designed for this situation.Otherwise the whole thing sounds fine. One person spent a good amount of resources to help another guy get some extra abilities. Going by the other summon natures ally that is fine. You are talking about taking one person out of the game every couple of rounds to let another guy use several feats in combination in order to get a couple of extra attacks.Which could just as easily have been done by a single hast spell and no need for feats nor lots of other castings.The only reason that the mice one is extreme is because it summons so many. Effectively this spell only has a couple of incredibly limited uses. 1) it can be used to torture someone, 2) it can be used to help someone gain extra cleave attacks.. that is pretty much it, likely they wont even be able to set off traps, and the spell will be around 3rd level anyway, possibly fourth (because there are so many of them again, even at fifth level having someone get swarmed by 16 mice that deal 1 damage each is a pretty major attack spell, they can even fall under the swarm rules almost or with enough castings) So, you have someone who spent resources to make a spell, then used a slot, then time, and directing it and the other guy who has to use the appropriate feats just to get any real benefit from this point and he still has to give up his aoo's which could go to other targets in order to get the benefit. That is still assuming that the dm is incredibly lax about 'opponent' and 'enemy' which is yet another problem.Cleave is a nice feat early on, but really loses its power as creatures get more and more hp (hp increase incredibly fast after all). So, I have not seen cleave to be a common feat. In fact, I think my character awhile back was the only one in the group to have ever gotten it. Other feats simply do more and are more reliable. Which would you rather have? A feat that you can count on everytime whenever you need it, or one that has a list of requirements that may never come true in a time that matters. Depends on the character, but many people prefer to have something that isnt incredibly dependent on the dm + random chance to boot.About the big bad having cleave, do you know every feat that the bad guys have? all equipment? so how exactly are you going to know? just hope? Not a good plan, you would effectively have to wait and see if the big bad cleaves anything or not. If he doesnt he might or might not have it. If he does then you know not to use this combo. This does not sound like a good plan.Where is the eye rolling smiley when it is needed.I know exactly how these things work, and I can see the implications. However, they just are not that impressive.The list of requirements needed in order for it to work, and then the benefits gained from that, pale in comparison to so many other available tactics that it makes this particular one just another option to use now and then.It is not all powerful or menacing. Even your best examples with this hypothetical spell which is pretty much solely made for this purpose shows that. It has drawbacks, if you have a list of uses for this spell besides this go ahead and list them, they arent likely to be able to set off traps, mice make a lot of noise when in groups and frightened, you said nothing about them having disease or some other special attack so there isnt any, it is a summoning spell so likely takes a full round, and who knows what other limitations. against low level guys they can swarm and cause a lot of mischief, hence why it would be at least level 3 which is in line with other summon spells and at that point its offensive capabilities are lessened.::shrugs:: balance issues show that it isnt unbalanced. Flavor issues can be argued either way for anything and everything. It fits with what the feat is supposed to do and is allowed by the raw.</blockquote>

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