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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elvinis75" data-source="post: 1807556" data-attributes="member: 4379">Adding a little back into the conversationI started this thread and have taken a lot of time reading the responses that you have all taken the time to post and I have to say that Scion is right on this one IMHO.  The problem is that people keep trying to tie this situation being a punishment issue.  The fact is that the BBEG is no more or less defending himself at any point during the round assuming that we are beyond the flat footed phase.  He is not more letting his guard down during the cleavers turn and you don’t have a problem with that attack slicing through a minion then and hitting him.  So I have concluded that the recipient of the cleave is not being punished.  It is also clear then it is the cleaver that is granted a special ability not the cleave recipient a punishment.  Then there is the idea that the cleaver is somehow more in control of the way in the attacks made during his turn.  The rules don’t backup this assertion.  The AOO is made at the highest attack bonus without limitations assigned.  If the designer had wanted the AOO to be a lesser attack they very easily can have assigned a minus to the roll.  So the facts don’t back up the assertion.  The facts are that an AOO is made with all the same skill as any other attack that you take during your turn given no movement.  I don’t think that one should throw out the ability to make cleaves during an AOO because of possible stretches of loopholes in the rules.  So we have a couple of different scenarios:1.    The phantom foes2.    The summoned allies turned into foesThe issue that I have with the first one is the illusions are not real and thus allowing areal affect to take place off from them is smelly stinky cheese.  While it is within the rules? to do so it doesn’t pass the DM smell test.  It seems a lot easier to me for the DM of the game to ban this situation.  It falls into the category of on the fly subjective rulings that I hate but the players are trying to make the rules do something that they were never intended for.  So as a DM I would take the hard decision to be the player nemesis and say no.  The second situation follows the first a guess accept I find it a lot more believable that it would work within the rules than the first.  I agree with Scion that is a spell that would have limited use and would be at least a medium spell.  Either way it seems to me to be a better solution to get rid of the ridiculous combos than the situation that rarely comes up.  Can someone answer me the question of why the BBEG is going to even bother to get into combat?  It seems like his best option is to let the battle go and attack after.  Or better yet shoot or throw into melee while the battle is going on.  If he hit the minions so what?  If he hits the players then good.  I think that in the end the minion will do something stupid once in a while but not all of them and not all of the time and thus this isn’t going to be an issue in most campaigns.So I guess in closing I’m still thinking as Scion seems to that most of your problems are with cleave and not with AOO cleave.  Feats are extraordinary abilities that allow the characters to do the fantastic.  Cleave and GC are good feats in the lower levels but lose their zing in the higher levels.  I think of cleave as sort of a battlefield presence.  He is a master of knowing how to hit such that he can carom his attacks to others.  For some that is hard to see, imagine or believe but the truth is that the game all about believing in things that seem impossible.  Fireballs, Lightning bolts, guys that can shoot 3 or 4 arrows with one pull of the string.  Thank you for your time.  I’ll try to answer questions when I can but I’m busy a lot of this weekend and gone this weekend.  I seems like this was a good topic though as it got a lot of replies.  Thanks all  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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